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Thread: Popup windows and JAWS
Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)
From: James Leslie
Date: Mon, Oct 26 2009 7:40AM
Subject: Popup windows and JAWS
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Hi,
I was just wondering if there are problems associated with using JAWS
and popup windows. A client wants us to create an accessibility survey
for them and has suggested that it opens in a popup window. I am
advising that it opens in a normal browser window, as I'm fairly sure
this would be better practice, but can't find documentation to back this
up.
Thanks in advance,
James
--
Transversal Corporation Ltd will be exhibiting at CIPD Annual conference & exhibition 2009 in
Manchester between 17 - 19 November, stand 510.
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Mon, Oct 26 2009 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
"I was just wondering if there are problems associated with using JAWS and popup windows. A client wants us to create an accessibility survey for them and has suggested that it opens in a popup window."
Screen readers in general don't tend to have too much trouble with popup windows these days. There are of course many others out there besides Jaws, including Window Eyes, NVDA, Hal and System Access.
"I am advising that it opens in a normal browser window, as I'm fairly sure this would be better practice, but can't find documentation to back this up."
It seems to be people using screen magnification software that experience more trouble with popup windows than screen reader users. When you're focused on a very specific area of the page, it can be difficult to spot when a whole new window has opened up.
People with cognitive difficulties might also find popup windows troublesome. The sudden appearance of a window might be disorienting for example, or the apparent failure of the browser back button to work may also cause uncertainty.
Regards,
Léonie.
--
Nomensa - humanising technology
Léonie Watson | Director of Accessibility
t. +44 (0)117 929 7333
From: Simius Puer
Date: Mon, Oct 26 2009 11:20AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
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Hi James
Have you checked the archives for this forum? This discussion was recently
(about 6-8 weeks ago) discussed at some length. It was also quite heated
too ;]
From: ckrugman
Date: Mon, Oct 26 2009 6:50PM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
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Pop up windows work fine with JAWS and can be easily closed when the survey
is completed.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Leslie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:38 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Popup windows and JAWS
> Hi,
>
> I was just wondering if there are problems associated with using JAWS
> and popup windows. A client wants us to create an accessibility survey
> for them and has suggested that it opens in a popup window. I am
> advising that it opens in a normal browser window, as I'm fairly sure
> this would be better practice, but can't find documentation to back this
> up.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> James
> --
> Transversal Corporation Ltd will be exhibiting at CIPD Annual conference &
> exhibition 2009 in
> Manchester between 17 - 19 November, stand 510.
>
From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 7:35AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Well I just recently moved from JAWS 4.51 to 10.0 and it didnt' work
just fine. I wasn't always informed that a new window opened.
cheers
Geof
At 08:47 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote:
>Pop up windows work fine with JAWS and can be easily closed when the survey
>is completed.
>Chuck
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James Leslie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 6:38 AM
>Subject: [WebAIM] Popup windows and JAWS
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was just wondering if there are problems associated with using JAWS
> > and popup windows. A client wants us to create an accessibility survey
> > for them and has suggested that it opens in a popup window. I am
> > advising that it opens in a normal browser window, as I'm fairly sure
> > this would be better practice, but can't find documentation to back this
> > up.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > James
> > --
> > Transversal Corporation Ltd will be exhibiting at CIPD Annual conference &
> > exhibition 2009 in
> > Manchester between 17 - 19 November, stand 510.
> >
From: James Leslie
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 7:55AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks for the input, folks. I think the client is persuaded that a
popup isn't the best way to proceed
From: Randall Pope
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 8:45AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
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As a low vision person who also cannot hear, I often miss the popup windows
and had to hunt for it when the website refused to do anything unless I
respond to the popup window first. From a webmaster's point of view, I see
this as a necessary evil at times in certain circumstances. But many times
I have seen this approach being overly used to the point of annoying sighted
people as well.
In essential one needs to careful and use proper judgment when in using
popup windows in the web design.
With Warm Regards,
Randall "Randy" Pope
American Association of the Deaf-Blind
Website: http://www.aadb.org
301 495-4402 VP/TTY
301 495-4403 Voice
301 495-4404 Fax
AIM: RandyAADB
Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
free and AADB membership is not required.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
I thik it is also important that if you are going to use pop ups then
it must be clearly stated in the link text, not outside of the link
and certainly not somewhere else on the page.
cheers
Geof
At 10:44 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>As a low vision person who also cannot hear, I often miss the popup windows
>and had to hunt for it when the website refused to do anything unless I
>respond to the popup window first. From a webmaster's point of view, I see
>this as a necessary evil at times in certain circumstances. But many times
>I have seen this approach being overly used to the point of annoying sighted
>people as well.
>
>In essential one needs to careful and use proper judgment when in using
>popup windows in the web design.
>
>
>With Warm Regards,
>Randall "Randy" Pope
>American Association of the Deaf-Blind
>Website: http://www.aadb.org
>
>301 495-4402 VP/TTY
>301 495-4403 Voice
>301 495-4404 Fax
>AIM: RandyAADB
>
>Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
>subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
>free and AADB membership is not required.
>
>
From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 4:40PM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello:
If the alert for a pop-up window is placed inside the link text,
please include it after the important link words.
Having to listen to:
Opens in a new window
for a lot of links, not to mention navigating a list of links that
all start with O, is tedious at best and quite annoying after a while.
If the alert words come after the more important link words that
identify the link's content, then at least we can navigate through
the links quickly to avoid having to listen to "opens in a new
window" a million times.
Of course, if you only have one such link on a page, this issue isn't
of particular concern.
Thank you for considering this idea.
Jennifer
At 09:29 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Message-id: <86esem$ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>MIME-version: 1.0
From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Oct 27 2009 4:50PM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Jennifer
Abslutely it should come afterwards, if it didn't it would be no
better than "click here".
cheers
Geof
At 06:35 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
>Hello:
>
>If the alert for a pop-up window is placed inside the link text,
>please include it after the important link words.
>
>Having to listen to:
>Opens in a new window
>for a lot of links, not to mention navigating a list of links that
>all start with O, is tedious at best and quite annoying after a while.
>
>If the alert words come after the more important link words that
>identify the link's content, then at least we can navigate through
>the links quickly to avoid having to listen to "opens in a new
>window" a million times.
>
>Of course, if you only have one such link on a page, this issue isn't
>of particular concern.
>
>Thank you for considering this idea.
>
>Jennifer
>
>At 09:29 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote:
> >WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >Message-id: <86esem$ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >MIME-version: 1.0
>
>
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 3:40AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
If the alert for a pop-up window is placed inside the link text, please include it after the important link words."
This is good advice. Looking at the wider picture though, it represents one of the quandaries for web accessibility at the moment. Warning people about new windows is undoubtedly helpful for some. For a screen reader user, the act of reading a piece of text with several such inline links, can be a dreadful experience. For example:
"The first house build on the site of <Buckingham Palace (Opens new window)> is believed to be <Goring House (Opens new window)>, built by <Sir William Blake (Opens new window)> in around 1624."
Just now, I don't know what the elegant solution might be. Some mechanism for turning on/off the notifications perhaps? That too opens up the possibility of making the interface too complex for some people though, so perhaps there is another solution?
Regards,
Léonie.
--
Nomensa - humanising technology
Léonie Watson | Director of Accessibility
t. +44 (0)117 929 7333
From: Simius Puer
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 4:05AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
...or simply don't open new windows in the first place - it's a dreadful
practice!!
The "opens in a new window" title text added to a link only helps screen
readers. Most sighted users never see the title text on a link as it takes
a moment or two before it appears - usually long after they have already
clicked. Yes, you can use an icon to indicate a new window, but that can be
equally as confusing (and not always visually pleasing).
This is not just a question of accessibility but one of usability. I know
many people representing a wide age and ability range (all without any
significant disabilities) who get very confused, or annoyed, by new windows
or tabs opening without their permission. I've seen people walk away from
making purchases or using information sources simply because of this reason.
At the end of the day, if the user wants to open links in a new window they
can choose to do so themselves. Forcing their browser to behave as you want
it to is impolite, confusing and a poor user experience.
Anyone working with XHTML Strict will also discover that target="_blank" is
depreciated for this very reason (and just because you can do a hack-around
using JavaScript doesn't mean that you should).
From: Steven Henderson
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 4:45AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
I have to say that I agree that how a window opens should be the user's
choice. The web browser is a single application instance that a user has
chosen to open. They expect 'it' to open as a new window because it is a
windowed application, but to then treat links within that browser instance
as additional application windows is just plain wrong (for the same reasons
Simius points out). Imagine if every action you wanted to carry out in your
daily applications such as bolding text in Word or using a tool in Photoshop
prompted a new window ... ouch, that'd be a real b*****d!
I think the target attribute belongs in history like mailto links (shudder).
From: James Leslie
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
In general I agree, but unfortunately client demands will tend to always
win. Many of the sites I produce are help/FAQ sites that relate to
specific parts of a clients site (such as shopping cart) and it would be
probably worse for a user to be removed from halfway through a purchase
to find out information for something, than to open a (warned about)
popup.
Can I ask what is so wrong with mailto links? I still use them in places
and have never had a problem with them, or heard of any?
J
From: Steven Henderson
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 5:30AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Mailto links ... where to start. Here is a link to some issues that I agree
with:
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2008/12/06/10-reasons-to-avoid-mailto-lin
ks/
In my experience, back in university and in corporate work environments,
mailto links would default to a mail client assigned to your system user
profile (usually Outlook) which is fine. Outside these environments however,
it is largely a different story ... people don't generally use mail clients
but instead use web mail such as gmail, hotmail or other social network
hybrids. For those people (generally the people I build websites for) mailto
links result in a blank window - very unprofessional and definitely not
identifying with the change of times of my target users.
My rule is, if it for internal company web pages, then they are definitely
handy. Otherwise, they don't serve the vast majority of other users.
From: James Leslie
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 5:45AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks for the link, it's interesting. Without wanting to sidetrack the
topic too much, I have had a live site for 4 years with a mailto link
that has only received 2 pieces of spam in that time... both from the
same company.
I definitely agree about the default mail client aspect though.
Unfortunately the web being such a young medium means there is no
perfect answer to most of these solutions. Nearly every site I make uses
contact forms instead of mailto links but they suffer from spam through
the form, the only solution we currently have to this is a CAPTCHA,
which have numerous problems of their own, so haven't been implemented.
From: ckrugman
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:25AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | Next message →
This is a valid point. As a screen reader user I find this being too much
information that is unnecessary. The browser settings can be set
accordingly.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simius Puer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Popup windows and JAWS
...or simply don't open new windows in the first place - it's a dreadful
practice!!
The "opens in a new window" title text added to a link only helps screen
readers. Most sighted users never see the title text on a link as it takes
a moment or two before it appears - usually long after they have already
clicked. Yes, you can use an icon to indicate a new window, but that can be
equally as confusing (and not always visually pleasing).
This is not just a question of accessibility but one of usability. I know
many people representing a wide age and ability range (all without any
significant disabilities) who get very confused, or annoyed, by new windows
or tabs opening without their permission. I've seen people walk away from
making purchases or using information sources simply because of this reason.
At the end of the day, if the user wants to open links in a new window they
can choose to do so themselves. Forcing their browser to behave as you want
it to is impolite, confusing and a poor user experience.
Anyone working with XHTML Strict will also discover that target="_blank" is
depreciated for this very reason (and just because you can do a hack-around
using JavaScript doesn't mean that you should).
From: ckrugman
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:30AM
Subject: Re: Popup windows and JAWS
← Previous message | No next message
glad to know that you haven't imploemented the captcha as it is a nightmare
for blind users. Even the audio captcha formats in many cases leave much to
be desired.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Leslie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Popup windows and JAWS
>
> Thanks for the link, it's interesting. Without wanting to sidetrack the
> topic too much, I have had a live site for 4 years with a mailto link
> that has only received 2 pieces of spam in that time... both from the
> same company.
> I definitely agree about the default mail client aspect though.
> Unfortunately the web being such a young medium means there is no
> perfect answer to most of these solutions. Nearly every site I make uses
> contact forms instead of mailto links but they suffer from spam through
> the form, the only solution we currently have to this is a CAPTCHA,
> which have numerous problems of their own, so haven't been implemented.
>
>
>