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Number of posts in this thread: 40 (In chronological order)

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:20AM
Subject: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
No previous message | Next message →

Hi folks,

I will be doing accessibility testing for http://beyondmetrix.com/,
and since currently I use an Apple, we are looking to expand my work
station to include a Windows machine with Jaws and Window Eyes. As you
know, these programs are quite expensive. Does anyone have any
pointers for getting our hands on these programs? A vocational program
is out, because there is a freeze on services in my state, and there
are no grants.

Also, beyond the financial aspect, I am curious to hear from other
blind or visually impaired folks who use multiple screen readers on
one machine. Is it possible to switch between Jaws and Window Eyes
with no sighted assistance?

Any tips and experiences on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

I am so excited to have this opportunity, and don't want them to have
to break the bank to get these Windows readers ;)

Much appreciated,

-Randi

I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:35AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Sounds like some very interesting questions. I'll look forward to this thread.

I am a web developer on Fed Gov't sites and found that Freedom
Scientific has a fully functional demo version of JAWs. which I have
downloaded. It has a time limitation and you have to reboot if you
use it beyond the time limitation. Sometimes annoying.

Nancy Johnson

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Randi < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I will be doing accessibility testing for http://beyondmetrix.com/,
> and since currently I use an Apple, we are looking to expand my work
> station to include a Windows machine with Jaws and Window Eyes. As you
> know, these programs are quite expensive. Does anyone have any
> pointers for getting our hands on these programs? A vocational program
> is out, because there is a freeze on services in my state, and there
> are no grants.
>
> Also, beyond the financial aspect, I am curious to hear from other
> blind or visually impaired folks who use multiple screen readers on
> one machine. Is it possible to switch between Jaws and Window Eyes
> with no sighted assistance?
>
> Any tips and experiences on this issue would be greatly appreciated!
>
> I am so excited to have this opportunity, and don't want them to have
> to break the bank to get these Windows readers ;)
>
> Much appreciated,
>
> -Randi
>
> I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:40AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Nancy,

Oh so with the demo, say the limit is thirty minutes, if you go beyond
that you have to reboot? Do you know how long the trial lasts? That
might just work for while I'm learning the program, excellent!

~Randi

Its an adventure, said Fred.

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:00AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

The trial is indefinite.

Here is a link to the Freedom Scientific website with infor about
their free downloads
http://www.freedomscientific.com/downloads/demo/FS-demo-downloads.asp
Hope tis helps.

Nancy

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Randi < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Nancy,
>
> Oh so with the demo, say the limit is thirty minutes, if you go beyond
> that you have to reboot? Do you know how long the trial lasts? That
> might just work for while I'm learning the program, excellent!
>
> ~Randi
>
> Its an adventure, said Fred.
>
>

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Nancy wrote

"The trial is indefinite.

Here is a link to the Freedom Scientific website with infor about
their free downloads
http://www.freedomscientific.com/downloads/demo/FS-demo-downloads.asp
Hope this helps."

Mikes input:

A word of caution. You may want to read the FS licensing agreement before using the trail version as a testing tool.

You can use Narrator in Windows to switch between screen readers.

Mike

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:15AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Oooh if its indefinite, hmmm. I'll have to see what Sam thinks about
that. I mean if I'm in the middle of testing and it times out, that
would be a pain. But it would work as a bridge, and should be good for
teaching myself. Thank you!!

~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:20AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Mike, I think I would use the trial to teach myself, but I
wouldn't want it timing out if I'm in the middle of testing. Does the
licensing agreement say its not for use for working or something? Ah,
so narrator does have a purpose ;)

~Randi

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:25AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't use it for hard core testing. I'm testing an element here or
there that my experience tells me might have an accessibility issue.
Rarely am I currently going over the 40 minute limitation.

Nancy

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Randi < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Oooh if its indefinite, hmmm. I'll have to see what Sam thinks about
> that. I mean if I'm in the middle of testing and it times out, that
> would be a pain. But it would work as a bridge, and should be good for
> teaching myself. Thank you!!
>
> ~Randi
>
> One Day at a Time
>
>

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm pretty sure that the JAWS license forbids this sort of thing, but it is certainly done. So you know, it is 40 minutes or one use up to that length and then you need to reboot. I think that Window-Eyes is the same. If you are using one of these tools for production/testing work then your employer really should pony up the dough for a license.

You could also try NVDA, which doesn't have that constraint.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick

Senior Product Manager, Accessibility

Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:35AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Right, eventually it will be purchased, but up front, getting a pc and
the 2 readers is going to be a huge chunk of change. For training
purposes, I think the trial will be great, since I've never even used
the Windows readers. Is NVDA like a Windows reader? for testing, does
it mimic Jaws and Window Eyes?

~Randi

Its an adventure, said Fred.

From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:40AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

You cannot use the JAWS demo version for testing. Please read the licensing
agreement. It specifically forbids it from being used for testing. I wish
people would stop spreading the misinformation that it is allowed, because
it is not.

The demo version is provided to help you decide whether to buy the full
version, and that purchasing decision is all you are allowed to use it for.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve,

Thank you, I most certainly won't use it for testing. Do you know if
you can use it just to learn it?

~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:15AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I am not a lawyer, but in my opinion learning to use the tool would be part of the evaluation process.

Mike Moore

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Steve Green wrote:
> You cannot use the JAWS demo version for testing.

To clarify, you CAN use it, but it is against the terms of use -
http://webaim.org/blog/jaws-license-not-developer-friendly/ If you
think this is unfair, I encourage you to contact Freedom Scientific.

> The demo version is provided to help you decide whether to buy the full
> version, and that purchasing decision is all you are allowed to use it for.

And if you are a web evaluator, how are you to evaluate the product or
make a purchasing decision if evaluation and testing is strictly
prohibited? In other words, if you're wondering about purchasing JAWS
to do evaluation, you must either purchase it without ever using it or
violate the terms of use of the 40 minute demonstration version.

Randi, if you have an Intel-based Mac, you can install Windows under
Bootcamp or within a Parallels or VMWare Fusion virtual machine. These
allow you to run Windows natively on your Mac. You can then install
Windows-only screen readers. I have JAWS, NVDA, and Window Eyes all
running in VMWare Fusion on my MacBook Pro. The only caveat with the
laptop is that you must remap the INSERT key to something else because
the laptop has no INSERT key and the alternative CAPS LOCK key doesn't
work. Details at http://webaim.org/blog/screenreaders_on_mac/

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 9:50AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

This issue never occurred to me. I will talk to my supervisor.

Nancy

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Moore,Michael (DARS)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am not a lawyer, but in my opinion learning to use the tool would be part of the evaluation process.
>
> Mike Moore
>
>
>

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Jared,
Thank you for the information. I am terrified of doing anything
Windows on my Mac. Its just the Macbook, the least expensive one, and
I don't know anything about trying to do such a thing, and if I hurt
my Mac, oh I don't even want to think of it.

Good to know the option is there, but I don't think I'll be doing that.

At least we know for sure that we want Jaws and Window Eyes, so maybe
the demo isn't an option.

~Randi

Its an adventure, said Fred.

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 10:05AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Randi < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Jared,
> Thank you for the information. I am terrified of doing anything
> Windows on my Mac.

BootCamp, Parallels, and VMWare are pretty solid and safe. They fully
isolate Windows from the Mac stuff. But I understand the general sense
of dread that comes with knowing Windows is running on a Mac.

> At least we know for sure that we want Jaws and Window Eyes, so maybe
> the demo isn't an option.

Window Eyes also has a 40-minute (or maybe 30-minute?) demonstration
mode which does not have the restrictions against evaluation. Instead,
they highly encourage evaluators and developers to use this version of
their software. They understand that developers are unlikely to
purchase the full version, but by allowing them to use the demo
version, we can then make web content more accessible to those that do
purchase Window Eyes.

The advantage of putting it on Parallels or VMWare is that you can
reboot in about 10 seconds and start over.

Jared

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 10:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh that is good to know about window Eyes. Maybe we can just use the
demo for that and figure something out with Jaws.

Ugh, I'm so glad I have an Apple.

~Randi

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 12:05PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Shame they didnt' encourage hiring screen reader users to do what you
want, must be some available out there somewhere who could use a job. :O)

cheers

Geof

At 12:06 PM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Randi < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Jared,
> > Thank you for the information. I am terrified of doing anything
> > Windows on my Mac.
>
>BootCamp, Parallels, and VMWare are pretty solid and safe. They fully
>isolate Windows from the Mac stuff. But I understand the general sense
>of dread that comes with knowing Windows is running on a Mac.
>
> > At least we know for sure that we want Jaws and Window Eyes, so maybe
> > the demo isn't an option.
>
>Window Eyes also has a 40-minute (or maybe 30-minute?) demonstration
>mode which does not have the restrictions against evaluation. Instead,
>they highly encourage evaluators and developers to use this version of
>their software. They understand that developers are unlikely to
>purchase the full version, but by allowing them to use the demo
>version, we can then make web content more accessible to those that do
>purchase Window Eyes.
>
>The advantage of putting it on Parallels or VMWare is that you can
>reboot in about 10 seconds and start over.
>
>Jared
>

From: ckrugman
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 5:05PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

You can always download the version of JAWS and use it for testing in the
"Demo" mode where it runs for 40 minutes at a time and you can then restart
your computer and use it in this mode for as long as you need to for each 40
minute period.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:18 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Jaws and Window Eyes info needed


> Hi folks,
>
> I will be doing accessibility testing for http://beyondmetrix.com/,
> and since currently I use an Apple, we are looking to expand my work
> station to include a Windows machine with Jaws and Window Eyes. As you
> know, these programs are quite expensive. Does anyone have any
> pointers for getting our hands on these programs? A vocational program
> is out, because there is a freeze on services in my state, and there
> are no grants.
>
> Also, beyond the financial aspect, I am curious to hear from other
> blind or visually impaired folks who use multiple screen readers on
> one machine. Is it possible to switch between Jaws and Window Eyes
> with no sighted assistance?
>
> Any tips and experiences on this issue would be greatly appreciated!
>
> I am so excited to have this opportunity, and don't want them to have
> to break the bank to get these Windows readers ;)
>
> Much appreciated,
>
> -Randi
>
> I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 5:35PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Chuck,

some people suggested that, but then it was pointed out that the
licensing agreement forbides this, so I think I better keep it legal.
The more I learn about Jaws, the more I dislike that company.

~Randi

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 6:05PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi All

The more I read of this thread the more its starting to tick me off.

People like myself who are on a limited budget and can barely afford
the screen reader software that connects me to the Internet and
allows me some semplance of accessibility have to rely on developers
who balk at the idea of paying for the same software so they can
develop programs that in the end aren't very accessible after all
is said and done because they dont use it day in and day out.

Problem is even if you did buy the software program you still cant
get it right because there are so many websites, applications and
software programs out there that are not accessible, some worse than
others, that it is quite clear that you dont have a clue how
to design for accessibility, or you dont really want to.

I give an example of IToons. I spent over an hour today trying to
create an access one of the most unusable initerfaces in order to
set up an account so I could buy music, in the end I gave up and now
Apple will not get my business, I spent over $500 last year on a much
simpler site and I have the most up to date screen reader and
browser. How long will it take for Adobe to get it right?

If I were to hazard a guess I would say that you do not really
incorporate screen reader users in your development because if you
did we would not have this problem, rather you would use these
demos and convince yourself that your are doing something for the
greater good just to save a buck, when you should be having on
staff a real screen reader user who can point out the problems from
real life experience, not 40 minutes with your screen turn off, life
as a screen reader is more complicated than that.

cheers

Geof

At 07:02 PM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>You can always download the version of JAWS and use it for testing in the
>"Demo" mode where it runs for 40 minutes at a time and you can then restart
>your computer and use it in this mode for as long as you need to for each 40
>minute period.
>Chuck
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:18 AM
>Subject: [WebAIM] Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
>
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I will be doing accessibility testing for http://beyondmetrix.com/,
> > and since currently I use an Apple, we are looking to expand my work
> > station to include a Windows machine with Jaws and Window Eyes. As you
> > know, these programs are quite expensive. Does anyone have any
> > pointers for getting our hands on these programs? A vocational program
> > is out, because there is a freeze on services in my state, and there
> > are no grants.
> >
> > Also, beyond the financial aspect, I am curious to hear from other
> > blind or visually impaired folks who use multiple screen readers on
> > one machine. Is it possible to switch between Jaws and Window Eyes
> > with no sighted assistance?
> >
> > Any tips and experiences on this issue would be greatly appreciated!
> >
> > I am so excited to have this opportunity, and don't want them to have
> > to break the bank to get these Windows readers ;)
> >
> > Much appreciated,
> >
> > -Randi
> >
> > I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
> > http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
> >
> >

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 6:55PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jeff,

I am completely blind, and have just been brought on as a web
accessibility tester for a company who is implemeting accessibility in
their company, to help web developers learn how to make their sites
accessible. There are some who are trying.

I use an apple computer with Voiceover, so my new employer is trying
to set me up with Jaws and Window eyes, so that I can be as well
rounded a tester as possible. The expense of this endeavor is quite
daunting, which I am just becoming aware of, since I only went blind a
year and a half ago, and bought the Apple, because the screen reader
was built in.

I completely understand your frustrations, but I have to say that the
developers on this list are the most caring and compassionate
"sighties" I have run across, outside of my blind center. These people
really are trying to make a difference. And Samantha Mignano at http://beyondmetrix.com/
is one of those people trying to make a difference, by bringing in a
normal blind girl like myself with no programming experience, to check
out websites and try to improve the net. Unfortunately, getting our
hands on the Windows Readers is taking some doing, and that is why I
asked the folks here.

Just trying to let you know there are good people out there, looking
after us and trying to help.

*Randi

Doggy Diaries and other ramblings at:
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Randi
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:05PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh also, yeah, iTunes is a total pain, but with some doing, I was able
to figure it out and its been wonderful. I found forums of other
Voiceover users to help, so maybe there are other screen reader users
who have figured out the craziness who could help too. Its worth
figuring out if at all possible with Windows readers, because iTunes
is implementing descriptive audio into their videos. It took me days
of playing to figure it out, and then after an update, things changed
and I wanted to hurl the laptop out the window, but thats another
story...

Please feel free to email me off list if you want to chat, or just
vent about how inaccessible the net can be.

~Randi

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: deblist
Date: Fri, Nov 13 2009 8:10PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Geof,

I agree that we need more understanding that people with
disability needs should be hired as developers and testers, and
that outreach to job candidates with adaptive tech needs should
happen from the companies that claim a committment to
accessibility.

(And without question, iTunes is a failure of accessibility; I
can't use it at all as a voice-user.)

But I do think the people here care quite a bit, and understand
more than many about how to program for accessibility. There's a
ways to go, and convincing our employers to *hire* people with
disabilities as professional testers and developers will go a
long way to fixing the remaining gaps.

-deborah

From: Samantha Mignano
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 3:35AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I would just like to add that we as a company are fully intending
buying the full version of Jaws and Windows Eyes for Randi, at our own
expense - not hers, along with a computer to run these on.
We discussed about trial versions as we thought this might help Randi
evaluate the products beforehand, and also help her to get to grips
with how much training she feels she might need, so that we can also
budget for that too.

I advise all of my clients to have testing done on all websites,
whether we have developed them or not, with our own team of testers
who have a range of disabilities or browsing methods.
We have testers who have mobility and/or motor skills impairments,
testers who have partial sight, testers with dyslexia, testers with
long term pain problems that cause attention and concentration issues
for them and more.
I am committed to testing with people who have actual requirements,
rather than trying to test with the technology alone as I do not feel
this works well enough. Like Geoff said, the site or interface needs
to be tested by someone who has full knowledge of the barriers he or
she encounters for the testing and solutions to be effective.

It is not always easy to sell this testing service in to clients as
other companies try and say that they have tested the site with a
screen reader and some automated tool and think that ticks all the
boxes. They seem happy to then deem the product or service accessible
- and some clients think that is enough.
It does bite me when I hear this as I know there is a very long way to
go towards getting sites accessible. We are currently re-doing our own
company site and it is going through the same testing with our team
before launch to ensure that we are practising what we preach.

Samantha Mignano

Beyond Metrix Ltd ~ evolving business online ~ http://www.beyondmetrix.com

Independent website audits, web strategy, web design & development,
usability, accessibility, SEO & online marketing.

Need help with your website? Call us now for a free website audit
consultation. 08456 44 88 54

A UK registered limited company. Company Registration Number: 5734561.
VAT registration number 891 2460 17

On 14 Nov 2009, at 02:01, Randi wrote:

> Oh also, yeah, iTunes is a total pain, but with some doing, I was able
> to figure it out and its been wonderful. I found forums of other
> Voiceover users to help, so maybe there are other screen reader users
> who have figured out the craziness who could help too. Its worth
> figuring out if at all possible with Windows readers, because iTunes
> is implementing descriptive audio into their videos. It took me days
> of playing to figure it out, and then after an update, things changed
> and I wanted to hurl the laptop out the window, but thats another
> story...
>
> Please feel free to email me off list if you want to chat, or just
> vent about how inaccessible the net can be.
>
> ~Randi
>
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:55AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

>Hi Randi
>
>That is good to hear, there needs to be more companies like that.
>
>I know people on this list mean well, my post only applies to those
>who fall into the topic of my rant. :O)
>
>cheers
>
>Geof



>I completely understand your frustrations, but I have to say that the
>developers on this list are the most caring and compassionate
>"sighties" I have run across, outside of my blind center. These people
>really are trying to make a difference. And Samantha Mignano at
>http://beyondmetrix.com/
> is one of those people trying to make a difference, by bringing in a
>normal blind girl like myself with no programming experience, to check
>out websites and try to improve the net. Unfortunately, getting our
>hands on the Windows Readers is taking some doing, and that is why I
>asked the folks here.
>
>Just trying to let you know there are good people out there, looking
>after us and trying to help.
>
>*Randi
>
>Doggy Diaries and other ramblings at:
>http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:05AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

>Hi Jared
>
>Perhaps I'm missing your point here:
>
>And if you are a web evaluator, how are you to evaluate the product or
>make a purchasing decision if evaluation and testing is strictly
>prohibited? In other words, if you're wondering about purchasing JAWS
>to do evaluation, you must either purchase it without ever using it or
>violate the terms of use of the 40 minute demonstration version.
>
>Why would you even give it a second thought, if you want to test
>your site with JAWS then you have no choice but to purchase it, 40
>minutes is not enough time to understand the complexities of a
>screen reader, I would suggest that people try doing there job for a
>whole day using a screen reader with no cheating, then you will
>truly understand the barriers and frustrations faced by screen reader users.
>
>cheers
>
>Geof

Editor
Accessibility News
www.accessibilitynews.ca
Accessibility News International
www.accessibilitynewsinternational.com

From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Keep in mind both System Access from www.satogo.com and NVDA (Non Visual
Desktop Access) from www.nvda-project.org are free screen readers that can
be used while testing accessibility. If a page works with these two they
will work fine with Jaws and the more expensive alternatives (a disclaimer
that NVDA is designed for FireFox and its IE support has been very minimal,
however I see in their latest update they are adding IE support).
NVDA is open source whilst Serotek has provided this free accessibility
solution for mobile users and, I suspect, partly for people wanting to test
accessibility.
I hope I am not seeing a representative portion of this list as I very
recently subscribed. I was hoping to see discussions on web accessibility
problems, not the usual screen reader bashing, however justified.
Cheers
-B

From: Geof Collis
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 8:00AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Birkir

I tried System Access to go and while it is a very useful tool I did
not find it as good as JAWS so I wouldn't go as far as to say that if
a page works fine with it then it'll work with other screen readers.

Also, screen readers have very much to do with web accessibility. :O)

cheers

Geof

At 09:09 AM 11/14/2009, you wrote:
>Keep in mind both System Access from www.satogo.com and NVDA (Non Visual
>Desktop Access) from www.nvda-project.org are free screen readers that can
>be used while testing accessibility. If a page works with these two they
>will work fine with Jaws and the more expensive alternatives (a disclaimer
>that NVDA is designed for FireFox and its IE support has been very minimal,
>however I see in their latest update they are adding IE support).
>NVDA is open source whilst Serotek has provided this free accessibility
>solution for mobile users and, I suspect, partly for people wanting to test
>accessibility.
>I hope I am not seeing a representative portion of this list as I very
>recently subscribed. I was hoping to see discussions on web accessibility
>problems, not the usual screen reader bashing, however justified.
>Cheers
>-B
>
>

From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 8:15AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Geoff

True, but my point is that if you can access a page with System Access you
can as well or better with Jaws, so SA can be your lowest accessibility
denominator. If it takes a screen reader like Jaws to access a web page and
you can´t access it with a less "fancy" piece of software it clearly shows
there is an accessibility problem in the pages design.

It's like saying you need photo shop pro to check if a .jpg file works
rather than just opening it in Internet Explorer.

I would not like to see web designers using the all-to-familiar (and true)
Freedom Scientific products are awful and they won´t allow us to test our
page so we don´t have to, argument to absolve themselves of the
responsibility for testing their web pages, because there are free options
out there for doing that, and that was my point.

Cheers
-B

From: deblist
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009, Birkir Gunnarsson wrote:
> I would not like to see web designers using the all-to-familiar (and true)
> Freedom Scientific products are awful and they won´t allow us to test our
> page so we don´t have to, argument to absolve themselves of the
> responsibility for testing their web pages, because there are free options
> out there for doing that, and that was my point.

Birkir,

The argument here was exactly the opposite. Everybody on this
list thinks it's vital to test products in realistic settings and
we're furious at Freedom Scientific for making it more difficult.

Personally I've learned I need to test in JAWS to learn my users'
experiences, because most of them use JAWS, just as most
screenreader users elsewhere in the world do. If I test in
Window-Eyes and NVDA I get a different experience of the page,
and when I'm trying to make sure error messages appear at the
appropriate time that difference is vitally important to know
about.

(By the way, any folks with disablities on this list who'd like
to be involved in open source programming or testing let me know!
My project has a mostly-disabled accessibility team and we always
love more.)

-deborah

From: Geof Collis
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 8:45AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Point taken. :O)

cheers

Geof
At 10:12 AM 11/14/2009, you wrote:
>Geoff
>
>True, but my point is that if you can access a page with System Access you
>can as well or better with Jaws, so SA can be your lowest accessibility
>denominator. If it takes a screen reader like Jaws to access a web page and
>you can´t access it with a less "fancy" piece of software it clearly shows
>there is an accessibility problem in the pages design.
>
>It's like saying you need photo shop pro to check if a .jpg file works
>rather than just opening it in Internet Explorer.
>
>I would not like to see web designers using the all-to-familiar (and true)
>Freedom Scientific products are awful and they won´t allow us to test our
>page so we don´t have to, argument to absolve themselves of the
>responsibility for testing their web pages, because there are free options
>out there for doing that, and that was my point.
>
>Cheers
>-B
>
>
>
>

From: Randi
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 8:55AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh this is not a typical discussion, no worries :)

Usually its a bunch of programming stuff that goes right over my head,
I just had these questions and brought them here for some good
answers, which I'm getting.

I'll look into those free ones., thanks!

~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Randi
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 9:00AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I was wondering about that, if they were just as good. Glad to hear it
from a screen reader user that its not necessarily a good alternative.

I think we've gotten some great info here everyone. Thanks for all the
input!

~Randi

For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.

From: Randi
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I'll be testing with Jaws, for sure. I get the argument that testing
with something else not as good will prove that Jaws can do it, but I
want the entire feel of a site, from the way people "out there" will
experience it. If there's graphically something in the middle of the
page that the free reader doesn't pick up, that Jaws picks up, it
might be something really cool, and it would be something I'd miss if
I wasn't using Jaws.

Now that I know there aren't really any alternatives other than buying
the monster, my questions are answered. Thanks everyone for your
imput. And sam, I hope I didn't imply that you're looking for less
expensive alternatives, or anything, I certainly never wanted anyone
to think that.

Thanks again everyone!
~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 9:45AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Is anyone actively testing web pages with Apple and VoiceOver?
I know it is a pretty different concept and I do wonder how accessibility
stacks up using Apple's browser.
I do understand the point about it being best to test with the software most
users use and I certainly agree with it, as well as the fact FS does not
really encourage or allow it.
As for a screen reader comment I hope that Apple as well as the improvement
of the aforementioned screen readers will change the playing field a bit.
I found the experience of browsing fairly similar with Jaws and System
Access, for instance, but very different with Window Eyes. We just did a
side by side testing of Jaws, Window Eyes, Hal, NVDA and System Access with
a few apps, nothing overly scientific or anything (I'll post a link to the
official report once it is up on the web site), and what struck me most was
how different I found it to work with Window Eyes from Jaws on the web.
I really like the advent of the Aria tags and screen reader users definitely
need to test and argue for them being supported (we are already beginning to
see them being supported in NVDA, Jaws, and Window Eyes, Hal to an extent).
I have pretty limited time (full time job and two boys under 3) but if
someone wants a Jaws user perspective on a page I'll definitely do my best
to take a look and give feedback.
Happy hacking everyone, so to speak. ;)
-B

From: Randi
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I use Voiceover, its the only screen reader I know, having tought
myself Apple when I went blind. I've been using it about 11 months.
Once I get a Windows machine with Jaws and Window eyes, I'll be
testing with all 3. I've done just some fun looking at stuff when
things were mentioned here, but not extensive testing with Voiceover
yet. Since I don't have much comparison yet, I can't say much, but I
know I'm in love with my Apple, and will never change my primary
reader. It'll be fun to learn Jaws and Window eyes and compare though.

~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: S.R. Emerson, Accrete Web Solutions
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:10AM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | Next message →

> I hope I am not seeing a representative portion of this list as I very
> recently subscribed. I was hoping to see discussions on web accessibility
> problems, not the usual screen reader bashing, however justified.
> Cheers
> -B

Bifkir,
We have recently had quite a few people who we actually build accessible
websites for join the list and speak up.

I really appreciate hearing from the people who have to use their mode of
accessible technology to get around the web. They are a welcome and
refreshing addition to the discussion instead of accessibility "experts"
that have no first hand experience monopolizing the discussion.

S. Emerson
Accrete Web Solutions
http://www.accretewebsolutions.ca
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/accrete

From: ckrugman
Date: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:35PM
Subject: Re: Jaws and Window Eyes info needed
← Previous message | No next message

Their only problem is that they are not the most user friendly. The good
part is that a large percentage of their staff are users of their products
as they have hired many blind or partially sighted people in various
capacities.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Jaws and Window Eyes info needed


> Hi Chuck,
>
> some people suggested that, but then it was pointed out that the
> licensing agreement forbides this, so I think I better keep it legal.
> The more I learn about Jaws, the more I dislike that company.
>
> ~Randi
>
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>