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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Langum, Michael J
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:06AM
Subject: Question for screen reader users
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We've been requested to remove all the carriage returns (that is, when you hit the Enter key to insert a blank line between paragraphs) because (they allege ) screen readers will say them aloud.

I've never heard of this. Can anyone confirm or deny?

-- Mike Langum
Asst. Webmaster, WWW.OPM.GOV
U.S. Office of Personnel Management

From: Randi
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:15AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Um, er, what? Haha! I have no idea. Alex says "new line" when I insert
a line, or hit enter. I don't mind it. That way I know there's a new
line. Is that what you're referring to? I don't get it.

~Randi

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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That's ridiculous!!! They might say something like "blank," but so what? That sounds like some specific screen reading person being too picky and/or not knowing how to use the screen reader well enough to make that go away. This is a waste of your time and is not needed at all.

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:21AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Screen reader may say "blank" it is not an issue for most screen reader users.

Mike Moore
(512) 424-4159

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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"We've been requested to remove all the carriage returns (that is, when you hit the Enter key to insert a blank line between paragraphs) because (they allege ) screen readers will say them aloud."

I don't recall having seen behaviour like this with any of the popular screen readers. Certainly not on a web page at least. I believe it's possible to configure MS Word to display characters such as carriage returns, but that's nothing to do with how a screen reader interprets the page.

Screen readers will report blank lines on a page. Perhaps this is what they mean? That's usually a legitimate piece of information though, caused by using <p>...</p> in the standard way.


Regards,
Léonie.

--
Nomensa - humanising technology

Léonie Watson | Director of Accessibility
t. +44 (0)117 929 7333

From: Keith Parks
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:27AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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On Dec 15, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Langum, Michael J wrote:

> We've been requested to remove all the carriage returns (that is,
> when you hit the Enter key to insert a blank line between
> paragraphs) because (they allege ) screen readers will say them aloud.

Regardless of what screen readers might or might not "say", depending
on how you are creating your html (assuming we're talking about html
here), the more proper way to get space between paragraphs instead of
inserting an empty paragraph would be to specify the spacing through
CSS.

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

World Peace through Cascading Style Sheets.

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:57AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Your question made me curious, so I created a very simple page to test it out. The page just contained a series of paragraph elements with various numbers of blank lines before, after, and inside the paragraph elements.

With JAWS 11 and both IE7 and FF3.5, JAWS announced a single blank line after each paragraph--no matter how many blank lines appeared in the html file. It, like the browsers, ignored any blank lines in the paragraph elements.

With NVDA 20009.1 and both IE7 and FF3.5, NVDA did not announce any of the blank lines that appeared in the html file.

That's not a thorough test, but it seems to match what I have observed in the past with at least JAWS and NVDA. Someone else may be able to test the other screen readers, browsers, or various versions of either.

You can get a screen reader to announce a blank line if you have an empty block element (like the paragraph element) or a br element or a series of blank lines in a pre element. However, if that is the case, I would suggest removing them. If the site/app is using those empty elements to attain a certain visual appearance, then I would second Keith's suggestion to use CSS to attain that appearance.

Thanks!
Tim

From: Randi
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 11:24AM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Oh, I'm getting it now. So it's not for when we typesomething.
Voiceover doesn't say anything. It just goes to the next paragraph.
But I wouldn't care if it did. Seriously, what's the big deal?

~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 12:39PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Carriage-return announcement is configurable for most screen reading
software.
By default it will say blank for blank lines, e.g. CR with nothing after
it before another CR.
Sounds like someone is giving this feedback for something very specific
where normal screen behavior may not be in use.
Allen Hoffman
DHS
Office of Accessible Systems and Technology

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 12:42PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Where I see this most frequently is with MS Word documents and emails. The "blank" actually makes it easier to tell where a paragraph ends when editing or reading these documents. Most html and pdf tools will easily eliminate the empty paragraphs when converting the documents. A much bigger problem is improperly set up tables and missing headings.

I agree that there is really no reason to leave empty elements in html, especially since the can be quickly removed with any development tool worth using.

Mike Moore
(512) 424-4159

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 12:45PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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I really don't think anybody needs to go to the trouble of removing blank lines. It is too easy to set up any screen reader to ignore the blank lines.

From: Geof Collis
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 1:24PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Why would anyone want to remove the blank line between paragraphs for
screen reader users? How am I to know when one paragraph ends and
another starts?

You could also use the <br /> tag to create space between lines
instead of css, it would require less code.

cheers

Geo

At 12:55 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote:
>Your question made me curious, so I created a very simple page to
>test it out. The page just contained a series of paragraph elements
>with various numbers of blank lines before, after, and inside the
>paragraph elements.
>
>With JAWS 11 and both IE7 and FF3.5, JAWS announced a single blank
>line after each paragraph--no matter how many blank lines appeared
>in the html file. It, like the browsers, ignored any blank lines in
>the paragraph elements.
>
>With NVDA 20009.1 and both IE7 and FF3.5, NVDA did not announce any
>of the blank lines that appeared in the html file.
>
>That's not a thorough test, but it seems to match what I have
>observed in the past with at least JAWS and NVDA. Someone else may
>be able to test the other screen readers, browsers, or various
>versions of either.
>
>You can get a screen reader to announce a blank line if you have an
>empty block element (like the paragraph element) or a br element or
>a series of blank lines in a pre element. However, if that is the
>case, I would suggest removing them. If the site/app is using those
>empty elements to attain a certain visual appearance, then I would
>second Keith's suggestion to use CSS to attain that appearance.
>
>Thanks!
>Tim
>

From: ckrugman
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 8:00PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
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Whether or not they are said aloud depends on the individual choices and
settings implemented by the screen reader user. Depending on what I am doing
I want to know when blank lines occur in a paragraph or page especially if I
am doing editing or selecting to copy and paste. I also want them to be read
if I am proofreading or editing a document as I work in the legal field.
Chuck Krugman, M.S.W., Paralegal
1237 P Street
Fresno ca 93721
559-266-9237
----- Original Message -----
From: "Langum, Michael J" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:06 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Question for screen reader users


> We've been requested to remove all the carriage returns (that is, when you
> hit the Enter key to insert a blank line between paragraphs) because (they
> allege ) screen readers will say them aloud.
>
> I've never heard of this. Can anyone confirm or deny?
>
> -- Mike Langum
> Asst. Webmaster, WWW.OPM.GOV
> U.S. Office of Personnel Management
>
>
>

From: Bevi Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Dec 15 2009 9:30PM
Subject: Re: Question for screen reader users
← Previous message | No next message

Mike L wrote:
< We've been requested to remove all the carriage returns (that is, when you
hit the Enter key to insert a blank line between paragraphs) because (they
allege ) screen readers will say them aloud. I've never heard of this. Can
anyone confirm or deny? >


Years ago I remember some screen readers would read each blank carriage
return, so back in the stone age we were instructed to remove extraneous
blank lines.

It appears that recent screen readers can be set to ignore extra blanks.

However, it's really poor programming to have them in your document.

If you're designing a website, use CSS to create the visual white space
rather than blank <p> or <br> tags.
If you're creating a Word document, use your Word styles to create the
visual white space.
If it's desktop publishing, use your paragraph styles to create the visual
white space.

Our documents have more requirements than just 508 accessibility. They might
also have to work with cross-media technologies (mobile, web, PDF, press).
They might also have to comply with XML DTD/schemas and content management
systems (CMS).

For all these purposes, get rid of the blanks and craft your documents
correctly. Your portfolio will look better, too <grin>.

--Bevi Chagnon
...............
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