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Thread: Open in new window
Number of posts in this thread: 31 (In chronological order)
From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 8:24AM
Subject: Open in new window
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Just curious.
Today's standard is to open non-html pages as well as pages outside
the current website in a new window. How does that impact the
visually impaired and mobility impaired? Is it difficult to return to
the original page?
Thank you
Nancy Johnson
From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 8:33AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Nancy asked
Today's standard is to open non-html pages as well as pages outside
the current website in a new window. How does that impact the
visually impaired and mobility impaired? Is it difficult to return to
the original page?
[Mike's Comments] For non-html content, particularly PDF opening outside of the browser window is important to accessibility, particularly with screen readers. The same often holds true for video content since the embedded players are often inaccessible while most of the stand alone players work well. With PDF, the users can control this behavior with the Adobe reader forcing the content to open in the stand alone player.
As for returning to the original page, it is not difficult to use the keyboard to get back to the original browser window. The biggest barrier is an awareness that a new window has opened. Modern technologies notify the user when a new window opens. That being said, when moving from html page to html page, I prefer not to break the users back button and do not open the content in a new window even if it is off of my site.
Mike
From: Steven Henderson
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 8:36AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Hi Nancy,
I'm interested in other people's views on this too, as I had long adopted
the same new window approach. Then recently I noticed that although browsers
actually allow the user to open windows in a new window or tab, there is no
such option to override a page which is targeted to open in a new window, to
open in the same window. This lack of provision clearly takes control away
from the user, so I am currently inclined to adopt the strict XHTML approach
to not use a target, period. Most users have so many options to open windows
anyways, that I figure they of all people can live with a document opening
in the same window by default without it causing so much as a moments
discomfort!?
Steven
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 8:39AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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[Mike's Comments] For non-html content, particularly PDF opening outside of the browser window is important to accessibility, particularly with screen readers. The same often holds true for video content since the embedded players are often inaccessible while most of the stand alone players work well. With PDF, the users can control this behavior with the Adobe reader forcing the content to open in the stand alone player.
As Mike said, users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in the standalone reader - so there is no need to use target="_blank" or some other means to open a new window for the PDF content.
AWK
From: ckrugman
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 8:54AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Actually, in many instances this is easier when using keyboard commands and
screen reading software as the new window can be closed when returning or
the windows can be changed by using the "alt tab" commands.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Johnson" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:23 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Open in new window
> Just curious.
>
> Today's standard is to open non-html pages as well as pages outside
> the current website in a new window. How does that impact the
> visually impaired and mobility impaired? Is it difficult to return to
> the original page?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
>
From: DAVOUD TOHIDY
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 9:12AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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> [Mike's Comments] For non-html content, particularly PDF opening
outside of the browser window is important to accessibility,
particularly with screen readers.
This is a question for me now. Could you explain why is that please? Why a pdf content opened in the same window would be less accessible by screen readers?
Thanks
davoud
>
From: deblist
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 9:24AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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DAVOUD TOHIDY wrote:
> Why a pdf content opened in the same window would be less accessible by screen readers?
My accessibility software doesn't give me full access to the
functionality of the embedded PDF reader, and it's impossible for
me to leave the PDF reader once I've entered it without using
mouse commands. The external Acrobat Reader has full
accessibility functionality, with standard menus, and I can
alt-tab back to the browser.
But as others have said, I configured the "open in external
reader" functionality myself at the browser lever. With
something common like PDF, I'd rather trust the user to make her
own preferred choices. I open in same window/tab or external
window/tab as makes sense to me, and I don't like others to
control it.
-deborah
From: Dan Conley
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 9:30AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Interesting. I had thought the general consensus was to never open in a
new window because that information isn't always presented to users (I
believe it was with regards to screen readers, but may also have been
for users with intellectual disabilities).
If users can configure new windows for PDFs themselves then I won't
worry about that, but it's interesting that I was (or may have been)
taught wrong.
Dan Conley
Information Specialist
Center for International Rehabilitation Research Information and
Exchange (CIRRIE)
University at Buffalo, Health Sciences Library B6
Phone: (716) 829-5728
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://cirrie.buffalo.edu
On 4/13/2010 10:24 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> DAVOUD TOHIDY wrote:
>> Why a pdf content opened in the same window would be less accessible by screen readers?
>
> My accessibility software doesn't give me full access to the
> functionality of the embedded PDF reader, and it's impossible for
> me to leave the PDF reader once I've entered it without using
> mouse commands. The external Acrobat Reader has full
> accessibility functionality, with standard menus, and I can
> alt-tab back to the browser.
>
> But as others have said, I configured the "open in external
> reader" functionality myself at the browser lever. With
> something common like PDF, I'd rather trust the user to make her
> own preferred choices. I open in same window/tab or external
> window/tab as makes sense to me, and I don't like others to
> control it.
>
> -deborah
>
From: deblist
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 9:39AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Dan Conley wrote:
> I had thought the general consensus was to never open in a
> new window because that information isn't always presented to users
There is a difference between forcing a browser page to open in a
new window, and forcing non-HTML to open in a new window versus an
embedded app. (Can you even do that? At the HTML level, can you
say "open this PDF document directly in Acrobat reader, ignoring
any embedded application?" Won't telling the PDF to open in a new
window just open it in a new window or tab with the embedded
application?)
Even as a non-screen reader user, I find information opening in
new windows or tabs to be confusing; they aren't always announced
to me *visually*.
My preference as both a user and a web designer is to indicate
after links if they are non-HTML content (usually PDF, but also
if they go directly to a video or somesuch) so that the user can
choose whether and how to open the link.
-deborah
From: Randi
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 9:42AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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I really like having the option. As was said, I don't want things
dictated for me. For example, when I post a blog, I can view it in a
new window or just view post. Blogger has given me that option. I
typically view in a new window, because once I've viewed it, I can
close the window. I wouldn't want that for everything I look at
though. Safari and Voiceover are good about telling me when there's a
new window. I wish I had that option with Google. I'd like my search
results page to stay on one window, and any browsing to be in another,
that way I can easily get back to my search result. I think it really
just all depends on the user, so I like having options open to me, not
dictated.
*Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
Doggy Diaries and other ramblings at:
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
On Apr 13, 2010, at 6:23 AM, Nancy Johnson wrote:
> Just curious.
>
> Today's standard is to open non-html pages as well as pages outside
> the current website in a new window. How does that impact the
> visually impaired and mobility impaired? Is it difficult to return to
> the original page?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
>
From: Randall Pope
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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I believe it would be best to allow the readers to pick the option that is
right for them instead of forcing one over the others.
For me as a deafblind person, I rather not open to a new window due to
confusion of which window that I'm on, not to mention of closing the wrong
window that I need to sign on again. Not having the statistic on hand, I
assumed the general audience would rather not open new windows. But again
this is my guess.
As for the PDF normally it opens in the same window unless the link is
specific to open a new window.
With Warm Regards,
Randall "Randy" Pope
American Association of the Deaf-Blind
Website: http://www.aadb.org
301 495-4402 VP/TTY
301 495-4403 Voice
301 495-4404 Fax
AIM: RandyAADB
Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
free and AADB membership is not required.
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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On 13/04/2010 15:24, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> DAVOUD TOHIDY wrote:
>> Why a pdf content opened in the same window would be less accessible by screen readers?
>
> My accessibility software doesn't give me full access to the
> functionality of the embedded PDF reader, and it's impossible for
> me to leave the PDF reader once I've entered it without using
> mouse commands. The external Acrobat Reader has full
> accessibility functionality, with standard menus, and I can
> alt-tab back to the browser.
So really, the comment about non-html content isn't so much about
opening it in a new window, but rather forcing it to download rather
than open in an embedded viewer...two different things altogether, I
think...
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Apr 13 2010 11:03AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
> [Mike's Comments] For non-html content, particularly PDF opening
outside of the browser window is important to accessibility,
particularly with screen readers.
[Davoud's Question] This is a question for me now. Could you explain why is that please? Why a pdf content opened in the same window would be less accessible by screen readers?
[Mike's Comments] Screen readers use configuration files that are based upon the application that is running. Thus if a PDF opens inside a browser the screen reader treats it as if it were a web page rather than a PDF resulting in improper functioning of navigation, reading, and form controls. When the PDF is opened inside of the stand alone Adobe reader application then the screen reader user has proper control of the document. This does not require any special treatment on the part of the developer when coding the link to the document. The user can configure Adobe Reader to always open PDFs in the stand alone reader rather than inside of the browser plug-in.
Mike
>
From: Rakesh.Paladugula
Date: Wed, Apr 14 2010 10:27PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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If a PDF file opens in the same window, a screen reader user cannot move
back to the previous page with the normal keyboard command "back space"
or "Alt key + left arrow". If he/she don't know how to revert back to
the previous page they have to close the entire window and again open
the website or webpage. But if the indication is given before he/she
open the pdf that it is a pdf document and that opens in new window then
the screen reader user can close the pdf with "alt + f4 " key and go to
the previous windo once he completes the work on the pdf document.
I suggestion is to pen in new window as a JAWS user.
Rakesh Paladugula.
Accessibility Consultant.
Cognizant Technology Solutions (India).
Mob: 91 9030497136
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Apr 15 2010 12:54PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Nancy, I guess you are seeing from a wide variety of users -- blind, deaf-blind, and free of any such disability -- that they personally prefer having control over whether a new window or tab opens on any given click. I can add (unpublished) experimental evidence to that.
Last year, I was conducting a usability study on a new online application that drew data from a number of different databases. Many of the databases had been completely merged with a central search application, such that all data in the database was available to that application. Other databases were essentially standalone -- that is, they provided a limited set of information to the new, central application, but to get more information from that database you had to leave the new search application and go to an older one specific to that database. So there was a profound change in the look, feel, and function of the interaction whenever that happened.
The programmers decided that it would be nice to open a new tab whenever such a transition occurred. That way, they surmised, the user could easily return to the original application whenever they were done with the unmerged database -- they just had to close the new tab. So they were adamant that we keep this feature.
Well, when we finished the usability tests, they were shocked. What they had thought was a favor turned out to be a source of great irritation. Of over 30 participants, only one was completely unfazed by the opening of a new tab. One other recovered within about 10 seconds. And the people most puzzled by the opening of the new tab those who had the most experience with the Web. They had already opened many other tabs themselves -- for example, to go to their own websites to find real data to use in testing our new application -- but never expected a new tab to open when they didn't ask for it. At least one of them, on finally realizing what had happened, closed all but one tab -- including the one he had intended to keep open. He wasn't real happy.
So this "feature" was removed, and our testing supports the anecdotal information: You are not the Twilight Zone; do not assume control. Let the user decide how their interface will work.
Cliff
Cliff Tyllick
Usability specialist and Web development coordinator
Agency Communications Division
Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
512-239-4516
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Eoin Campbell
Date: Thu, Apr 15 2010 2:54PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Jakob Nielsen (the usability guru) has an interesting article on
this topic at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html
He suggests forcing the browser to open the relevant application
(e.g. Acrobat Reader, Word, Excel) when a link to a non-HTML file
is clicked.
His summary:
"When using PC-native file formats such as PDF or spreadsheets, users feel like they're interacting
with a PC application. Because users are no longer browsing a website, they shouldn't be given a
browser UI."
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> If a PDF file opens in the same window, a screen reader user cannot move
> back to the previous page with the normal keyboard command "back space"
> or "Alt key + left arrow". If he/she don't know how to revert back to
> the previous page they have to close the entire window and again open
> the website or webpage. But if the indication is given before he/she
> open the pdf that it is a pdf document and that opens in new window then
> the screen reader user can close the pdf with "alt + f4 " key and go to
> the previous windo once he completes the work on the pdf document.
--
Eoin Campbell
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Apr 15 2010 5:39PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Eoin, Jakob is right on target, but isn't that entirely under the user's control? It seems to me that it depends on preferences they set in their own browser, not on how we code our links. But perhaps I'm missing something.
>>> Eoin Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 4/15/2010 2:56 PM >>>
Jakob Nielsen (the usability guru) has an interesting article on
this topic at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html
He suggests forcing the browser to open the relevant application
(e.g. Acrobat Reader, Word, Excel) when a link to a non-HTML file
is clicked.
His summary:
"When using PC-native file formats such as PDF or spreadsheets, users feel like they're interacting
with a PC application. Because users are no longer browsing a website, they shouldn't be given a
browser UI."
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> If a PDF file opens in the same window, a screen reader user cannot move
> back to the previous page with the normal keyboard command "back space"
> or "Alt key + left arrow". If he/she don't know how to revert back to
> the previous page they have to close the entire window and again open
> the website or webpage. But if the indication is given before he/she
> open the pdf that it is a pdf document and that opens in new window then
> the screen reader user can close the pdf with "alt + f4 " key and go to
> the previous windo once he completes the work on the pdf document.
--
Eoin Campbell
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Apr 15 2010 5:42PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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Apologies for my errant pop culture reference a couple of messages ago. The conclusion should, of course, read:
"You are not *The Outer Limits* (not 'Twilight Zone'); do not assume control. Let the user decide how their interface will work."
And if you don't get the reference, ask anyone who lived in the United States in the late 1960s.
From: Simius Puer
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 4:15AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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I'm with Jakob on non-HTML files opening in their native application (and
not forgetting to warn users first).
users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>
...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From experience,
not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
It seems to me that it depends on preferences they set in their own browser,
> not on how we code our links. [Cliff T]
>
...not so:
"Best of all, *prevent the browser from opening the document* in the first
place. Instead *offer users the choice to save the file on their harddisk or
to open it in its native application* (Adobe Reader for PDF, PowerPoint for
slides, etc.). Unfortunately, doing so requires a bit of technical trickery:
you have to add an extra HTTP
header<http://www.unrealtower.org/pdfdownload>;to the transmission of
the offending file. The header line to be added is
"Content-disposition: Attachment". If possible, also add ";
filename=somefile.pdf" at the end of this line, to give the browser an
explicitfilename if the user chooses to save the file." [Source:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html]
Note that the *users right to choose is not removed*...a critical point.
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 4:48AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
> "Best of all, *prevent the browser from opening the document* in the first
> place. Instead *offer users the choice to save the file on their harddisk or
> to open it in its native application* (Adobe Reader for PDF, PowerPoint for
> slides, etc.). Unfortunately, doing so requires a bit of technical trickery:
> you have to add an extra HTTP
> header<http://www.unrealtower.org/pdfdownload>;to the transmission of
> the offending file. The header line to be added is
> "Content-disposition: Attachment". If possible, also add ";
> filename=somefile.pdf" at the end of this line, to give the browser an
> explicitfilename if the user chooses to save the file." [Source:
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html]
>
> Note that the *users right to choose is not removed*...a critical point.
Well, apart from the choice of opening it inside the browser via
plugin...which some users still may want.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 4:51AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
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On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
> users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
>> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>>
>
> ...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From experience,
> not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
learn how to use their software? But I know this debate is polarising
and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
From: Simius Puer
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 5:48AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
>
> Well, apart from the choice of opening it inside the browser via
> plugin...which some users still may want.
>
A good point - I wonder if the server config could offer that as an
option...will investigate. I wonder how many web managers actually bother
configuring their server at all? Actually, I know, and it is very few!
That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
> inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
> onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
> learn how to use their software?
>
I agree absolutely. Had a similar debate recently in which I pointed out
that most people set their font size on the computer/browser to suit their
tastes/needs - exactly your point about users understanding their software.
As many are not very computer literate they want to do this once and then
leave it alone...not have to use "widgets" they don't understand on each
website.
By simply not over-writing the base font size there is absolutely no need
for on-site font re-sizers! This is not easy for most designers who are
used to using tiny base fonts to break away from, but it really does work a
treat.
But I know this debate is polarising
> and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
I don't know about polarising - new windows are generally accepted as being
shunned practice for HTML links. For non-HTML content though the generally
accepted practice is:
a) warn users about changes the file format
b) give them an indication of the file-size (as non-HTML files are usually
considerably larger)
c) allow the user to choose the method of opening the content (and Jakob's
solution does that)
It basically comes down to that - notifying the user and allowing them to
choose.
Of course, there is a whole additional debate in whether those "other file
formats" should be used on the web in the first place ;]
From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 8:09AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Re: opening PDFs in Adobe reader.
In the case of PDF for screen reader users the process is really pretty simple. The first time you open Adobe reader with a screen reader running it prompts you to run through the accessibility set up. The default in this process is to have them open in the stand alone application instead of the plug-in.
Mike Moore
(512) 424-4159
From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 9:51AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
I agree that user control is the key.
What about mobility impaired keyboard users? Are there keyboard
commands to help with returning to the original page?
target=_blank: I believe there was a thread recently either on this
list or another list I belong to on what to use in place of
target=_blank. Can you remind me what is acceptable practice?
Also, we are just about to launch a major site, which our team was
contracted to install a CMS. As a web developer it was my first and
there were many lessons learned like:
How to write a style sheet to accommodate a content developer that has
little or no understanding of today's best practices.
Another is that I have no control if the content developer decides to
use target=_blank.
Nancy Johnson
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Moore,Michael (DARS)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Re: opening PDFs in Adobe reader.
>
> In the case of PDF for screen reader users the process is really pretty simple. The first time you open Adobe reader with a screen reader running it prompts you to run through the accessibility set up. The default in this process is to have them open in the stand alone application instead of the plug-in.
>
> Mike Moore
> (512) 424-4159
>
>
From: Simius Puer
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Nancy
I think you are confusing a "page" and an "application". Opening a new page
(an HTML page) in a new window is bad practice, opening an external
application for a non-HTML file format is correct...the explanation behind
this is covered in Jakob's article linked above.
target="_blank" should never be used as is depreciated - and the JavaScript
alternative should not be used either (there is plenty of discussion on this
in the archives for this mailing list) as this feature was depreciated for a
reason. Circumventing it with JavaScript just to validate is frankly really
dumb practice.
There are keyboard commands to swap between applications built into all
operating systems and most assistive technologies. The point is you should
not open new tabs/windows for HTML content in the first place.
Regarding CMS and your comment "how to write a style sheet to accommodate a
content developer that has little or no understanding of today's best
practices?"...this is a common error and one I come across all the time. To
quote from an article I wrote recently:
…a CMS is *not* just the bit of software you buy. That is just one part of
> the picture - the other part of the picture being the training and
> procedures needed to operate it correctly (*note:* the S in CMS stands for
> System *not* Software!!). 99% of the time this is overlooked or shoved in
> a dusty corner. The software without the training is not a CMS…*it is just
> a bit of software that makes it easier for people who don't know what they
> are doing to make mistakes, to make them faster, easier, more efficiently
> and more damaging to the website/company they are running.*
> **
**
So to answer your question: you don't - you educate the user! The same
goes for restricting the content developers use of target="blank" or other
dire practices...if you want to discuss that further I think it should be a
new thread as we're going off-topic a little ;]
If you are concerned with accessibility in a CMS environment (as any CMS
vendor really *ought* to be) you might be interested in reading the rest of
my article here:
http://www.simiusweb.ie/news/2010_02_10_cms_accessibility_reponsibility.htm
From: deblist
Date: Fri, Apr 16 2010 10:39AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Nancy Johnson wrote:
> What about mobility impaired keyboard users? Are there keyboard commands to help with returning to the original page?
Nancy, as has been said, there are plenty of keyboard commands to
switch between pages and to move between applications. However,
*embedded applications* in the browser are not very functional
for keyboard-only users. This is what sparked some of the earlier
discussion. From a keyboard-only perspective, you will be much
better off with one instance of your browser and one instance of
the external application, instead of an embedded application that
appears in a browser window/tab.
Though to reiterate the earlier thread, that is controlled by the
user preferences at the browser level, unless the developer
forces the download functionality as discussed earlier.
-deborah
From: ckrugman
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 9:00AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Yes, as a user of adaptive technology I can't complain that something isn't
accessible if I don't know or haven't learned how to make it accessible on
my end. The user does have to take some responsibility here.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
> On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
>> users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
>>> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>>>
>>
>> ...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From
>> experience,
>> not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
>
> That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
> inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
> onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
> learn how to use their software? But I know this debate is polarising
> and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:42PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
As someone who is in charge of 508, this has been a great learning
experience and very informative. Thank you all for sharing.
I have one last question, then I'll shut up.
My understanding is keyboard users always go top to bottom and left to
right to interact with a page. Is there any keyboard command which
would allow the user to go bottom to top? In case a link is missed
and do not use a screen reader?
Thanks
Nancy
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:01 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yes, as a user of adaptive technology I can't complain that something isn't
> accessible if I don't know or haven't learned how to make it accessible on
> my end. The user does have to take some responsibility here.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
>
>
>> On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
>>> users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
>>>> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>>>>
>>>
>>> ...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From
>>> experience,
>>> not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
>>
>> That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
>> inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
>> onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
>> learn how to use their software? But I know this debate is polarising
>> and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
>>
>> P
>> --
>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>
From: J. B-Vincent
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 12:45PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Nancy: Shift+Tab allows users to move backwards through links.
Jane Vincent, Center for Accessible Technology
--- On Mon, 4/19/10, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
From: Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 10:42 AM
As someone who is in charge of 508, this has been a great learning
experience and very informative. Thank you all for sharing.
I have one last question, then I'll shut up.
My understanding is keyboard users always go top to bottom and left to
right to interact with a page. Is there any keyboard command which
would allow the user to go bottom to top? In case a link is missed
and do not use a screen reader?
Thanks
Nancy
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:01 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yes, as a user of adaptive technology I can't complain that something isn't
> accessible if I don't know or haven't learned how to make it accessible on
> my end. The user does have to take some responsibility here.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
>
>
>> On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
>>> users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
>>>> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>>>>
>>>
>>> ...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From
>>> experience,
>>> not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
>>
>> That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
>> inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
>> onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
>> learn how to use their software? But I know this debate is polarising
>> and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
>>
>> P
>> --
>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>
From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Apr 19 2010 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | Next message →
Thank you.
That also helps when I test jquery navigation etc and other items
that may have trouble to the keyboard user. There are some areas
within the current site I am working on that may require the user to
go up.
Nancy
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 1:46 PM, J. B-Vincent < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Nancy: Shift+Tab allows users to move backwards through links.
>
> Jane Vincent, Center for Accessible Technology
>
> --- On Mon, 4/19/10, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> From: Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 10:42 AM
>
> As someone who is in charge of 508, this has been a great learning
> experience and very informative. Thank you all for sharing.
>
> I have one last question, then I'll shut up.
>
> My understanding is keyboard users always go top to bottom and left to
> right to interact with a page. Is there any keyboard command which
> would allow the user to go bottom to top? In case a link is missed
> and do not use a screen reader?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nancy
>
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:01 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Yes, as a user of adaptive technology I can't complain that something isn't
>> accessible if I don't know or haven't learned how to make it accessible on
>> my end. The user does have to take some responsibility here.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Patrick H. Lauke" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 2:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Open in new window
>>
>>
>>> On 16/04/2010 10:15, Simius Puer wrote:
>>>> users can control whether the PDF document opens in the same window or in
>>>>> the standalone reader [Andrew K]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...they *can*, but how many really know *how *to do this? From
>>>> experience,
>>>> not a great many, and those are usually the very web-savvy.
>>>
>>> That's also always the argument for things like text resize widgets
>>> inside pages etc, which always makes me wonder: shouldn't there be an
>>> onus on users (particularly those with specific access requirements) to
>>> learn how to use their software? But I know this debate is polarising
>>> and usually doesn't come to a consensus.
>>>
>>> P
>>> --
>>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>>
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Tue, Apr 20 2010 8:03AM
Subject: Re: Open in new window
← Previous message | No next message
Nancy said:
I have one last question, then I'll shut up.
Cliff responds:
This list is here so we can help one another improve our understanding of accessibility. Any time you have a question, please feel free to post it here. If no one asks questions, then we never have a chance to get into stimulating discussions.
Thanks for participating!
Cliff Tyllick
Web development coordinator
Agency Communications Division
Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
512/239-4516
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =