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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Tue, Jun 22 2010 4:45PM
Subject: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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Hi There,

I've had problems with Acrobat instability when accessing PDF files while using screen readers such as JAWS and NVDA. These files were created using MS Word 2007 and converted to PDFs with the Acrobat PDFMaker plugin for Word. Some of the files also had form elements added in Acrobat Pro 9. The documents read correctly when using Acrobat's internal Read Out Loud functionality and they also show no errors when running Acrobat's Full Accessibility check. The problem appears when accessed while using screen readers - Acrobat becomes sluggish and unstable causing the application to eventually lock up. I've tried processing and testing the documents on different machines but I'll still having the same issues.

Here's a link to one of the files: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf

Any Idea what might be causing the problem??

Thanks.

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Jun 22 2010 5:33PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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> I've had problems with Acrobat instability when accessing PDF files while using screen readers such as JAWS and NVDA. These files were created using MS Word 2007 and converted to PDFs with the Acrobat PDFMaker plugin for Word. Some of the files also had form elements added in Acrobat Pro 9. The documents read correctly when using Acrobat's internal Read Out Loud functionality and they also show no errors when running Acrobat's Full Accessibility check. The problem appears when accessed while using screen readers - Acrobat becomes sluggish and unstable causing the application to eventually lock up. I've tried processing and testing the documents on different machines but I'll still having the same issues.
>
> Here's a link to one of the files: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf
>
> Any Idea what might be causing the problem??

The sample provided isn't tagged correctly. Indeed, it's tagged in a very unorthodox way (page content inside <Form> tags, for example) that might cause instability when the form encounters a screen-reader.

For reference: Acrobat's "Read Out Loud" function is not useful for checking accessibility. See this article:

http://www.appligent.com/talkingpdf-itsoundedlikeagoodideaatthetime

Likewise, Acrobat's accessibility checker is of marginal use in determining accessibility. It has no idea, for example, that this file has all the page-content sitting inside <Form> tags. Nor can it validate the logical order of the content.

Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions, CEO
US Committee for ISO/CD 14289 (PDF/UA), Chair

22 E. Baltimore Ave
Lansdowne, PA 19050
+1 610 284 4006
+1 617 553 1934 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.appligent.com
http://www.twitter.com/duffjohnson

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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Duff,

Thanks for the info. The article on the "Read Out Loud" function was interesting.

I'm still not sure about the instability issue because it's also appearing in simple files without any form elements. I've tried to follow the basic workflow of converting a Word document to PDF using PDFMaker in Word. Does anyone have a good example of an accessible PDF (preferably with form elements) created using Word and Acrobat Pro.

Here's a sample problem PDF without form elements generated from Word: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf

rk

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 11:57AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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Roger,

> I'm still not sure about the instability issue because it's also appearing in simple files without any form elements. I've tried to follow the basic workflow of converting a Word document to PDF using PDFMaker in Word. Does anyone have a good example of an accessible PDF (preferably with form elements) created using Word and Acrobat Pro.
>
> Here's a sample problem PDF without form elements generated from Word: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf

This looks to me like the same file as the form previously posted.

Feel free to contact me offlist: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions, CEO
US Committee for ISO/CD 14289 (PDF/UA), Chair

22 E. Baltimore Ave
Lansdowne, PA 19050
+1 610 284 4006
+1 617 553 1934 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.appligent.com
http://www.twitter.com/duffjohnson

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 12:45PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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Try this one: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample2.pdf

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 1:09PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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On Jun 23, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Roger Kowallis wrote:

> Try this one: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample2.pdf

This file is incorrectly tagged at a variety of levels, but I don't see anything that should cause "instability" per se.

Tagging problems include:

1. Incorrect usage of List tags
2. Incorrect usage of Heading tags
3. Rule-lines should be artifacts (right now they have alt. text reading "---".

On the other hand, all the tags are, at least, in the right order.

It's possible that the list tags are screwing things up - certainly, they will confuse the heck out of a screen-reader.

Suggestion: Remove the list tags (ie, convert to Paragraph tags) and see if the problem remains. This would be best accomplished by redesigning the Word file to remove the unnecessary enumeration, then re-creating the PDF.

Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions, CEO
US Committee for ISO/CD 14289 (PDF/UA), Chair

22 E. Baltimore Ave
Lansdowne, PA 19050
+1 610 284 4006
+1 617 553 1934 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.appligent.com
http://www.twitter.com/duffjohnson

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 3:42PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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After running a few more tests, the instability still seems to be caused by something other than incorrectly using headings or list tags. I removed the list tags and republished the document from Word, but the problem remains. While navigating the PDF file with a screen reader, the Acrobat application eventually gets sluggish and locks up.

I even tried creating a new Word document and pasted all the content back into the document as just plain text. After publishing to PDF the same problem still exists...

Any ideas?

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2010 6:03PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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> After running a few more tests, the instability still seems to be caused by something other than incorrectly using headings or list tags. I removed the list tags and republished the document from Word, but the problem remains. While navigating the PDF file with a screen reader, the Acrobat application eventually gets sluggish and locks up.
>
> I even tried creating a new Word document and pasted all the content back into the document as just plain text. After publishing to PDF the same problem still exists...
>
> Any ideas?

Hmm... at this point it's sounding like a problem with the machine or software installation(s).

Have the testing and PDF creation machine(s) been restarted recently? I assume so, but I always like to ask before assuming.

The next step would be to test the same file on a different computer. Screen-readers are generally rather finicky beasts - especially if more than one screen-reader is installed on the same machine.

If that doesn't help identify the problem, the next step would be to repeat the PDF creation process on another computer and test again.

Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions, CEO
US Committee for ISO/CD 14289 (PDF/UA), Chair

22 E. Baltimore Ave
Lansdowne, PA 19050
+1 610 284 4006
+1 617 553 1934 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.appligent.com
http://www.twitter.com/duffjohnson

From: Priti Rohra
Date: Fri, Jun 25 2010 8:51AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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Hi Roger,

Even I observed sluggish behavior of JAWS to a limited extent while
accessing the referred file however, it didn't lock up the file for me. JAWS
responded slowly but I managed to read the file completely. I know that file
needs to be tagged correctly but to read the information you can try to set
Adobe to read single page at a time by selecting the option "Only read the
currently visible pages" available under the "Page vs. Document" drop-down
field.

The above option is found under the Reading option of the Preferences dialog
box found under the Edit menu of Adobe Reader. This will instruct screen
reader to read one page at a time and is helpful for navigating faster using
screen readers in PDF documents including forms.

Note: I am using Adobe Reader 9 with JAWS 9.

Hope this helps!

If you need any further assistance with regards to tagging the file, you can
write to us offline and we'll be happy to help.

Thanks & Regards,
Priti Rohra
Senior Accessibility Consultant
Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd. & BarrierBreak Technologies
Web: www.n-syst.com | www.barrierbreak.com
Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog

Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve
trees on our planet.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kowallis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 3:15 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Acrobat instability when using screenreaders


> Hi There,
>
> I've had problems with Acrobat instability when accessing PDF files while
> using screen readers such as JAWS and NVDA. These files were created using
> MS Word 2007 and converted to PDFs with the Acrobat PDFMaker plugin for
> Word. Some of the files also had form elements added in Acrobat Pro 9. The
> documents read correctly when using Acrobat's internal Read Out Loud
> functionality and they also show no errors when running Acrobat's Full
> Accessibility check. The problem appears when accessed while using screen
> readers - Acrobat becomes sluggish and unstable causing the application to
> eventually lock up. I've tried processing and testing the documents on
> different machines but I'll still having the same issues.
>
> Here's a link to one of the files:
> http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf
>
> Any Idea what might be causing the problem??
>
> Thanks.
>
>

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Fri, Jun 25 2010 4:33PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →

I ran additional tests creating and publishing PDFs from different machines in an attempt to track this issue down. It looks like those files created in Word 2007 and published to PDF with the Adobe PDFMaker 9.1 add-on manifested the instability.

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Sat, Jun 26 2010 1:12AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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On Jun 25, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Roger Kowallis wrote:

> I ran additional tests creating and publishing PDFs from different machines in an attempt to track this issue down. It looks like those files created in Word 2007 and published to PDF with the Adobe PDFMaker 9.1 add-on manifested the instability.

That's interesting.

A point of clarification... why "9.1"? The latest release is 9.3.2, and the update from 9.1 is (has been) strongly recommended due to security concerns.

I'm not saying that 9.3.2 differs from 9.1 in regards your problem... but it might.

If you can provide the Word file we'll check it out in our Word 2007 / Acrobat 9.3.2 environment.

Duff Johnson
Appligent Document Solutions, CEO
US Committee for ISO/CD 14289 (PDF/UA), Chair

22 E. Baltimore Ave
Lansdowne, PA 19050
+1 610 284 4006
+1 617 553 1934 (direct)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.appligent.com
http://www.twitter.com/duffjohnson

From: ckrugman
Date: Sat, Jun 26 2010 4:36AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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I tested the sample with the latest version of JAWS 11 and using version 9.3
and found that when I chose the reading preferences upon opening the
document There was no difficulty when choosing the choices "read left to
right, top to bottom" and "Read order in raw print screen." However The
document did lock up when I selected the choice "infer reading order from
document." I too have experienced this problem on many documents as well.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kowallis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:45 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] Acrobat instability when using screenreaders


> Hi There,
>
> I've had problems with Acrobat instability when accessing PDF files while
> using screen readers such as JAWS and NVDA. These files were created using
> MS Word 2007 and converted to PDFs with the Acrobat PDFMaker plugin for
> Word. Some of the files also had form elements added in Acrobat Pro 9. The
> documents read correctly when using Acrobat's internal Read Out Loud
> functionality and they also show no errors when running Acrobat's Full
> Accessibility check. The problem appears when accessed while using screen
> readers - Acrobat becomes sluggish and unstable causing the application to
> eventually lock up. I've tried processing and testing the documents on
> different machines but I'll still having the same issues.
>
> Here's a link to one of the files:
> http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample.pdf
>
> Any Idea what might be causing the problem??
>
> Thanks.
>
>

From: ckrugman
Date: Sat, Jun 26 2010 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
← Previous message | Next message →

I reviewed this document with JAWS 11 and Adobe Acrobat 9.3. When in the
"infer reading order from document" the document took several minutes to be
completely recognized and words were run together with some distortion of
pronunciation. The time to process the document was long enough where in the
interim I sent the document to be scanned and read by Kurzweil v12.02 and
found that the document was recognized and read properly. I subsequently
used the other reading choices in version 9.3 to read the document and there
was no difficulty in using the "left to right, top to bottom" or "Raw print
screen choices." This document was read with the most clarity using JAWS in
the "Raw print screen choice."
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Kowallis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Acrobat instability when using screenreaders


> Try this one: http://cmstest1.test.utah.edu/sample2.pdf
>
>

From: Roger Kowallis
Date: Mon, Jun 28 2010 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat instability when using screenreaders
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I am also using Acrobat 9.3.2 but my PDFMaker add-on for converting Word documents to PDFs is version 9.1. The Add-on version used to create the PDF, is displayed in the Document Properties of the PDF under the Description tab. Is your PDFMaker add-on version different? Is there a newer version of the PDFMaker add-on for MS Word 2007?

I've found that files created and published to PDF using Word 2010 don't have the problem and don't appear to be processed using the PDFMaker add-on.