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From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:27AM
Subject: The a11y bugs project
No previous message | Next message →

I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.

Please check out the project here:
http://a11ybugs.org

Regards,
Vlad Alexander

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:39PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for signing the petition Nancy!

> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
To focus the project and give it greater impact, the scope was initially set to 3 related bugs. As a result, the petition is just for these 3 bugs.

> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image
> uploading systems... make the alt a required field.
I think that would be a great direction for the project to take.

We are working on software and procedures to let anyone submit bugs and work together with others to get vendors to fix them.

Some have proposed that this project should evolve to be a public catalog of all accessibility related bugs in all types of software.

Others have suggested that this project should use the bugs submitted to create an accessibility acid test for browsers.

Where this project goes is up to the community.

Regards,
-Vlad



-------- Original Message --------
From: Nancy Johnson
Date: 10/24/2011 11:18 AM
> Hi Vlad,
>
> I think the project is great. I've been now to 2 Boston Un-conferences...
>
> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
>
> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image uploading
> systems... make the alt a required field.
>
> More images are uploaded through Content Management Systems by
> non-websavy individuals who wouldn't have a clue.
>
> For instance:
> Wordpress Admin as so many settings for image upload that non-web savy
> content folks will skip anything that's not required. I am training
> someone who is struggling to remember all the settings which to use at
> which time and have written them down..
>
> Vignette CMS allows the file name of the image to be dynamically used
> as the alt tag... which to me can cause major issues with
> usability....
>
> Anyway
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Nancy Johnson
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Vlad Alexander
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>
>> Please check out the project here:
>> http://a11ybugs.org
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vlad Alexander
>>
>>
>>

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:45PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Vlad,

I think the project is great. I've been now to 2 Boston Un-conferences...

This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?

I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
organizations that build Content Management Systems or image uploading
systems... make the alt a required field.

More images are uploaded through Content Management Systems by
non-websavy individuals who wouldn't have a clue.

For instance:
Wordpress Admin as so many settings for image upload that non-web savy
content folks will skip anything that's not required. I am training
someone who is struggling to remember all the settings which to use at
which time and have written them down..

Vignette CMS allows the file name of the image to be dynamically used
as the alt tag... which to me can cause major issues with
usability....

Anyway

Just my thoughts.

Nancy Johnson

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Vlad Alexander
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>
> Please check out the project here:
> http://a11ybugs.org
>
> Regards,
> Vlad Alexander
>
>
>

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2011 10:30PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

On 24/10/2011 18:23, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>
> Please check out the project here:
> http://a11ybugs.org
I like the concept of it but there are some issues with the site itself:

- you make users sign the petition of the idea of the whole concept and
then show the list under each bug. I might support the cause but I don't
necessarily see each bug as a bug. If it is not in context then the list
of names is redundant on the bug pages.
- Bug 1, Bug 2 and Bug 3 doesn't tell me much - if I want to know what
is going on these links should be the description of the bug
- Having a bug list in the right hand column doesn't scale at all - if
there are 20 bugs you'll already run out of space
- The page looks dated and uninviting (I know this is a personal taste
thing but design has moved on a bit) - why don't you offer the page
itself on github so people could provide styling?

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 12:15AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi

I happily signed this, and will pass the word on to the European Blind
Union technology expert mailing list, if that is ok with you (getting
signatures from multiple countries should only encourage fixes).
Does anyone know of, or is anyone planning, a similar project that
tracks inconsistencies and bugs in how various screen readers
implement web technologies (ARIA in particular)?
This is a complex game, the interaction between user, screen reader,
browser and content designer (sometimes CMS and the designer). I
suspect fixes will have to be made at all levels, including the screen
readers, so it would be great to track all of these things in one
place, and it is definitely one direction I could see this project go.
Personally, I think expanding it to all bugs in all software will be
too much, and it might lose focus, not unless it first successfully
deals with all web technologies, but with HTML5 on the horizon, I
doubt the accessibility commmunity will run out of projects any time
soon.
Keep up the good work.
-Birkir

On 10/24/11, Vlad Alexander < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks for signing the petition Nancy!
>
>> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
> To focus the project and give it greater impact, the scope was initially set
> to 3 related bugs. As a result, the petition is just for these 3 bugs.
>
>> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
>> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image
>> uploading systems... make the alt a required field.
> I think that would be a great direction for the project to take.
>
> We are working on software and procedures to let anyone submit bugs and work
> together with others to get vendors to fix them.
>
> Some have proposed that this project should evolve to be a public catalog of
> all accessibility related bugs in all types of software.
>
> Others have suggested that this project should use the bugs submitted to
> create an accessibility acid test for browsers.
>
> Where this project goes is up to the community.
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Nancy Johnson
> Date: 10/24/2011 11:18 AM
>> Hi Vlad,
>>
>> I think the project is great. I've been now to 2 Boston
>> Un-conferences...
>>
>> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
>>
>> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
>> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image uploading
>> systems... make the alt a required field.
>>
>> More images are uploaded through Content Management Systems by
>> non-websavy individuals who wouldn't have a clue.
>>
>> For instance:
>> Wordpress Admin as so many settings for image upload that non-web savy
>> content folks will skip anything that's not required. I am training
>> someone who is struggling to remember all the settings which to use at
>> which time and have written them down..
>>
>> Vignette CMS allows the file name of the image to be dynamically used
>> as the alt tag... which to me can cause major issues with
>> usability....
>>
>> Anyway
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> Nancy Johnson
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Vlad Alexander
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and
>>> fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing
>>> some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>>
>>> Please check out the project here:
>>> http://a11ybugs.org
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Vlad Alexander
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 9:39AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

> I happily signed this
Thank you!

> and will pass the word on to the European Blind Union
> technology expert mailing list, if that is ok with you
Fantastic. Thanks!

> I suspect fixes will have to be made at all levels, including
> the screen readers, so it would be great to track all of
> these things in one place, and it is definitely one direction
> I could see this project go.
Okay.

> I think expanding it to all bugs in all software will be
> too much, and it might lose focus
That is a valid concern.

Regards,
-Vlad


-------- Original Message --------
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: 10/24/2011 2:23 PM
> Hi
>
> I happily signed this, and will pass the word on to the European Blind
> Union technology expert mailing list, if that is ok with you (getting
> signatures from multiple countries should only encourage fixes).
> Does anyone know of, or is anyone planning, a similar project that
> tracks inconsistencies and bugs in how various screen readers
> implement web technologies (ARIA in particular)?
> This is a complex game, the interaction between user, screen reader,
> browser and content designer (sometimes CMS and the designer). I
> suspect fixes will have to be made at all levels, including the screen
> readers, so it would be great to track all of these things in one
> place, and it is definitely one direction I could see this project go.
> Personally, I think expanding it to all bugs in all software will be
> too much, and it might lose focus, not unless it first successfully
> deals with all web technologies, but with HTML5 on the horizon, I
> doubt the accessibility commmunity will run out of projects any time
> soon.
> Keep up the good work.
> -Birkir
>
> On 10/24/11, Vlad Alexander< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Thanks for signing the petition Nancy!
>>
>>> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
>> To focus the project and give it greater impact, the scope was initially set
>> to 3 related bugs. As a result, the petition is just for these 3 bugs.
>>
>>> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
>>> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image
>>> uploading systems... make the alt a required field.
>> I think that would be a great direction for the project to take.
>>
>> We are working on software and procedures to let anyone submit bugs and work
>> together with others to get vendors to fix them.
>>
>> Some have proposed that this project should evolve to be a public catalog of
>> all accessibility related bugs in all types of software.
>>
>> Others have suggested that this project should use the bugs submitted to
>> create an accessibility acid test for browsers.
>>
>> Where this project goes is up to the community.
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Vlad
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Nancy Johnson
>> Date: 10/24/2011 11:18 AM
>>> Hi Vlad,
>>>
>>> I think the project is great. I've been now to 2 Boston
>>> Un-conferences...
>>>
>>> This petition seems to focus on browser makers. Am I correct?
>>>
>>> I hope you take another step and focus on those companies or
>>> organizations that build Content Management Systems or image uploading
>>> systems... make the alt a required field.
>>>
>>> More images are uploaded through Content Management Systems by
>>> non-websavy individuals who wouldn't have a clue.
>>>
>>> For instance:
>>> Wordpress Admin as so many settings for image upload that non-web savy
>>> content folks will skip anything that's not required. I am training
>>> someone who is struggling to remember all the settings which to use at
>>> which time and have written them down..
>>>
>>> Vignette CMS allows the file name of the image to be dynamically used
>>> as the alt tag... which to me can cause major issues with
>>> usability....
>>>
>>> Anyway
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Nancy Johnson
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Vlad Alexander
>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and
>>>> fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing
>>>> some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>>>
>>>> Please check out the project here:
>>>> http://a11ybugs.org
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Vlad Alexander
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 10:00AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Chris,

a11ybugs.org is a campaign site for the initial 3 bugs. The actual project, which was started 5 months ago is located here:

http://www.html4all.org/staging/a11y-bugs/

When the project becomes public at the URL above (probably after the campaign to fix the first 3 bugs), participation will be on a bug-by-bug basis and open to all. It will have a proper database/search/workflow that will scale.

To get the project going 5 months ago, we submitted 3 bugs to the browser vendors and then worked through back channels to get these 3 bugs fixed as a group.

The campaign site is kept simple, with only one signature for all 3 bugs so that when we go back to the browser vendors, we can present to them a single number of people who support fixing these initial 3 bugs. I believe keeping this campaign simple and focused will make it successful.

I agree that the pages do look "dated and uninviting" and someone from the community has volunteered to rework the look and feel.

Chris, I recognize your concerns and acknowledge that there is room for improvement. Nevertheless, I hope you will support this effort by adding your name to the petition and writing a tweet about this project. Thanks in advance!!!

Regards,
-Vlad



-------- Original Message --------
From: Chris Heilmann
Date: 10/25/2011 2:33 AM
> On 24/10/2011 18:23, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>
>> Please check out the project here:
>> http://a11ybugs.org
> I like the concept of it but there are some issues with the site itself:
>
> - you make users sign the petition of the idea of the whole concept and
> then show the list under each bug. I might support the cause but I don't
> necessarily see each bug as a bug. If it is not in context then the list
> of names is redundant on the bug pages.
> - Bug 1, Bug 2 and Bug 3 doesn't tell me much - if I want to know what
> is going on these links should be the description of the bug
> - Having a bug list in the right hand column doesn't scale at all - if
> there are 20 bugs you'll already run out of space
> - The page looks dated and uninviting (I know this is a personal taste
> thing but design has moved on a bit) - why don't you offer the page
> itself on github so people could provide styling?
>
>
>

From: John Foliot
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:03AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello Vlad,

It has recently come to light that you are now censoring (or at least limiting) public discussion around some of these bugs, and specifically that you have asked Steve Faulkner to refrain from publicly posing questions about the 3 current bugs.

As one of the founders of html4all, and host of that web space, this is counter to the spirit of our founding, which was to provide a platform for open and honest dialog about issues around accessing the web and related accessibility issues.

Can you please provide clarification on this issue? As you are hosting a11ybugs.org yourself, you are of course free to run it as you choose, but if this is your current stance on dissenting viewpoints then I must sadly remove the support of html4all from this project, and further ask that my name be removed from any indication of support to your project.

The web belongs to all of us, and not just those who control the publishing part of the platform, and censorship of any kind is totally unacceptable to me, and I suspect many others reading this today.

I await your response.

JF


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vlad Alexander (XStandard)" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:53:30 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] The a11y bugs project

Hi Chris,

a11ybugs.org is a campaign site for the initial 3 bugs. The actual project, which was started 5 months ago is located here:

http://www.html4all.org/staging/a11y-bugs/

When the project becomes public at the URL above (probably after the campaign to fix the first 3 bugs), participation will be on a bug-by-bug basis and open to all. It will have a proper database/search/workflow that will scale.

To get the project going 5 months ago, we submitted 3 bugs to the browser vendors and then worked through back channels to get these 3 bugs fixed as a group.

The campaign site is kept simple, with only one signature for all 3 bugs so that when we go back to the browser vendors, we can present to them a single number of people who support fixing these initial 3 bugs. I believe keeping this campaign simple and focused will make it successful.

I agree that the pages do look "dated and uninviting" and someone from the community has volunteered to rework the look and feel.

Chris, I recognize your concerns and acknowledge that there is room for improvement. Nevertheless, I hope you will support this effort by adding your name to the petition and writing a tweet about this project. Thanks in advance!!!

Regards,
-Vlad



-------- Original Message --------
From: Chris Heilmann
Date: 10/25/2011 2:33 AM
> On 24/10/2011 18:23, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>
>> Please check out the project here:
>> http://a11ybugs.org
> I like the concept of it but there are some issues with the site itself:
>
> - you make users sign the petition of the idea of the whole concept and
> then show the list under each bug. I might support the cause but I don't
> necessarily see each bug as a bug. If it is not in context then the list
> of names is redundant on the bug pages.
> - Bug 1, Bug 2 and Bug 3 doesn't tell me much - if I want to know what
> is going on these links should be the description of the bug
> - Having a bug list in the right hand column doesn't scale at all - if
> there are 20 bugs you'll already run out of space
> - The page looks dated and uninviting (I know this is a personal taste
> thing but design has moved on a bit) - why don't you offer the page
> itself on github so people could provide styling?
>
>
>

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:18AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

John, this is the email I sent to Steve who questioned Firefox's implementation on Twitter. If you think this is unreasonable, let me know.

-Vlad

---- start email ----
Subject: The a11y bugs project

Hi Steve,

I am sorry that you were not involved at the start of this project 5 months ago. But these bugs have been reviewed and signed off by 15 experts. We have spent 5 months trying to convince browser vendors to implement the fixes.

Initially Microsoft and Opera responded favorably towards this project but have failed to follow-up on their initial willingness to work together with the accessibility community. That is why we have gone public with this project.

We have met stiff resistance and delay tactics from the browser vendors who are looking for any reason not to fix these bugs. Questioning our bugs at this time can give them another reason not to fix them. If this project fails, the browser vendors will do even less for accessibility.

So I ask you to reconsider publicly questioning these bugs. If you have any questions regarding Firefox implementation about these features, please contact Aaron Leventhal who was with Mozilla at that time. Please contact him privately via his email [email removed]

Regards,
-Vlad
---- end email ----


-------- Original Message --------
From: John Foliot
Date: 10/26/2011 10:03 AM
> Hello Vlad,
>
> It has recently come to light that you are now censoring (or at least limiting) public discussion around some of these bugs, and specifically that you have asked Steve Faulkner to refrain from publicly posing questions about the 3 current bugs.
>
> As one of the founders of html4all, and host of that web space, this is counter to the spirit of our founding, which was to provide a platform for open and honest dialog about issues around accessing the web and related accessibility issues.
>
> Can you please provide clarification on this issue? As you are hosting a11ybugs.org yourself, you are of course free to run it as you choose, but if this is your current stance on dissenting viewpoints then I must sadly remove the support of html4all from this project, and further ask that my name be removed from any indication of support to your project.
>
> The web belongs to all of us, and not just those who control the publishing part of the platform, and censorship of any kind is totally unacceptable to me, and I suspect many others reading this today.
>
> I await your response.
>
> JF
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vlad Alexander (XStandard)"< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:53:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] The a11y bugs project
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> a11ybugs.org is a campaign site for the initial 3 bugs. The actual project, which was started 5 months ago is located here:
>
> http://www.html4all.org/staging/a11y-bugs/
>
> When the project becomes public at the URL above (probably after the campaign to fix the first 3 bugs), participation will be on a bug-by-bug basis and open to all. It will have a proper database/search/workflow that will scale.
>
> To get the project going 5 months ago, we submitted 3 bugs to the browser vendors and then worked through back channels to get these 3 bugs fixed as a group.
>
> The campaign site is kept simple, with only one signature for all 3 bugs so that when we go back to the browser vendors, we can present to them a single number of people who support fixing these initial 3 bugs. I believe keeping this campaign simple and focused will make it successful.
>
> I agree that the pages do look "dated and uninviting" and someone from the community has volunteered to rework the look and feel.
>
> Chris, I recognize your concerns and acknowledge that there is room for improvement. Nevertheless, I hope you will support this effort by adding your name to the petition and writing a tweet about this project. Thanks in advance!!!
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Chris Heilmann
> Date: 10/25/2011 2:33 AM
>> On 24/10/2011 18:23, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
>>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>>
>>> Please check out the project here:
>>> http://a11ybugs.org
>> I like the concept of it but there are some issues with the site itself:
>>
>> - you make users sign the petition of the idea of the whole concept and
>> then show the list under each bug. I might support the cause but I don't
>> necessarily see each bug as a bug. If it is not in context then the list
>> of names is redundant on the bug pages.
>> - Bug 1, Bug 2 and Bug 3 doesn't tell me much - if I want to know what
>> is going on these links should be the description of the bug
>> - Having a bug list in the right hand column doesn't scale at all - if
>> there are 20 bugs you'll already run out of space
>> - The page looks dated and uninviting (I know this is a personal taste
>> thing but design has moved on a bit) - why don't you offer the page
>> itself on github so people could provide styling?
>>
>>
>>

From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 11:24AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

I would argue that by not encouraging open dialog you are severely compromising the credibility of the project. I am not a browser vendor, but I would rather have open dialog than closed dialog. Openness ensures, most of the time, that the best decisions are made and the the best results are achieved.


Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca

Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt

View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt



On 2011-10-26, at 1:09 PM, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:

> John, this is the email I sent to Steve who questioned Firefox's implementation on Twitter. If you think this is unreasonable, let me know.
>
> -Vlad
>
> ---- start email ----
> Subject: The a11y bugs project
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I am sorry that you were not involved at the start of this project 5 months ago. But these bugs have been reviewed and signed off by 15 experts. We have spent 5 months trying to convince browser vendors to implement the fixes.
>
> Initially Microsoft and Opera responded favorably towards this project but have failed to follow-up on their initial willingness to work together with the accessibility community. That is why we have gone public with this project.
>
> We have met stiff resistance and delay tactics from the browser vendors who are looking for any reason not to fix these bugs. Questioning our bugs at this time can give them another reason not to fix them. If this project fails, the browser vendors will do even less for accessibility.
>
> So I ask you to reconsider publicly questioning these bugs. If you have any questions regarding Firefox implementation about these features, please contact Aaron Leventhal who was with Mozilla at that time. Please contact him privately via his email [email removed]
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad
> ---- end email ----
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: John Foliot
> Date: 10/26/2011 10:03 AM
>> Hello Vlad,
>>
>> It has recently come to light that you are now censoring (or at least limiting) public discussion around some of these bugs, and specifically that you have asked Steve Faulkner to refrain from publicly posing questions about the 3 current bugs.
>>
>> As one of the founders of html4all, and host of that web space, this is counter to the spirit of our founding, which was to provide a platform for open and honest dialog about issues around accessing the web and related accessibility issues.
>>
>> Can you please provide clarification on this issue? As you are hosting a11ybugs.org yourself, you are of course free to run it as you choose, but if this is your current stance on dissenting viewpoints then I must sadly remove the support of html4all from this project, and further ask that my name be removed from any indication of support to your project.
>>
>> The web belongs to all of us, and not just those who control the publishing part of the platform, and censorship of any kind is totally unacceptable to me, and I suspect many others reading this today.
>>
>> I await your response.
>>
>> JF
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Vlad Alexander (XStandard)"< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 8:53:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] The a11y bugs project
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> a11ybugs.org is a campaign site for the initial 3 bugs. The actual project, which was started 5 months ago is located here:
>>
>> http://www.html4all.org/staging/a11y-bugs/
>>
>> When the project becomes public at the URL above (probably after the campaign to fix the first 3 bugs), participation will be on a bug-by-bug basis and open to all. It will have a proper database/search/workflow that will scale.
>>
>> To get the project going 5 months ago, we submitted 3 bugs to the browser vendors and then worked through back channels to get these 3 bugs fixed as a group.
>>
>> The campaign site is kept simple, with only one signature for all 3 bugs so that when we go back to the browser vendors, we can present to them a single number of people who support fixing these initial 3 bugs. I believe keeping this campaign simple and focused will make it successful.
>>
>> I agree that the pages do look "dated and uninviting" and someone from the community has volunteered to rework the look and feel.
>>
>> Chris, I recognize your concerns and acknowledge that there is room for improvement. Nevertheless, I hope you will support this effort by adding your name to the petition and writing a tweet about this project. Thanks in advance!!!
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Vlad
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Chris Heilmann
>> Date: 10/25/2011 2:33 AM
>>> On 24/10/2011 18:23, Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
>>>> I am contributing to "the a11y bugs project" that aims to identify and fix browser/tool bugs that undermine accessibility on the web. Fixing some of these bugs can have a major impact on web accessibility.
>>>>
>>>> Please check out the project here:
>>>> http://a11ybugs.org
>>> I like the concept of it but there are some issues with the site itself:
>>>
>>> - you make users sign the petition of the idea of the whole concept and
>>> then show the list under each bug. I might support the cause but I don't
>>> necessarily see each bug as a bug. If it is not in context then the list
>>> of names is redundant on the bug pages.
>>> - Bug 1, Bug 2 and Bug 3 doesn't tell me much - if I want to know what
>>> is going on these links should be the description of the bug
>>> - Having a bug list in the right hand column doesn't scale at all - if
>>> there are 20 bugs you'll already run out of space
>>> - The page looks dated and uninviting (I know this is a personal taste
>>> thing but design has moved on a bit) - why don't you offer the page
>>> itself on github so people could provide styling?
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 12:27PM
Subject: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all.

Over the 5-month period, I have exchanged about a dozen emails with one browser vendor in particular. They used every possible tactic to push back fixing these bugs. Throughout this process, the only leverage we had was that another major browser vendor, Firefox, has a useful implementation. This made these items into "bugs" rather than "feature requests". This is a critical distinction! If Firefox has wrong implementation, then these items are new features to other vendors. If Firefox has correct implementation, then these items are bugs. Bugs can get fixed in a timely manner. New accessibility features are put at the end of the queue and right now, the queue is very long. And time is of the essence. Microsoft for example has a multi-year release cycle. If these bugs are not fixed in IE10, it will be years before they are fixed in IE11 or IE12.

I hope that in light of the above, you can understand why I asked Steve to consider using back channels to get clarification on Firefox implementation of these bugs directly from a former Mozilla developer.

I ask that we in the accessibility community work together for the greater good. Let's applaud Mozilla for having the best implementation for these 3 accessibility bugs, compared to the other browsers. Let's get the other browser vendors on board!

Regards,
-Vlad

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 1:39PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

hi Vlad,

"As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of
this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all."

I suggest discussion should have been public from the start. Spending 10
mins surfing with images disabled in Firefox will provide enough evidence
for most people to conclude that Firefox's implementation is broken. Text
is sometimes cut off and other times overlaps other content.

Due to this, getting other browsers to match Firefox's implementation does
not achieve 'the greater good'.

Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no indication that
text is a replacement for an image, while this may be appropriate in some
circumstances it is not in others.

I would further suggest that working openly with the Firefox team to improve
their implementation would be a necessary precursor to working on cross
browser support.

regards
Steve

On 26 October 2011 19:23, Vlad Alexander < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of
> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all.
>
> Over the 5-month period, I have exchanged about a dozen emails with one
> browser vendor in particular. They used every possible tactic to push back
> fixing these bugs. Throughout this process, the only leverage we had was
> that another major browser vendor, Firefox, has a useful implementation.
> This made these items into "bugs" rather than "feature requests". This is a
> critical distinction! If Firefox has wrong implementation, then these items
> are new features to other vendors. If Firefox has correct implementation,
> then these items are bugs. Bugs can get fixed in a timely manner. New
> accessibility features are put at the end of the queue and right now, the
> queue is very long. And time is of the essence. Microsoft for example has a
> multi-year release cycle. If these bugs are not fixed in IE10, it will be
> years before they are fixed in IE11 or IE12.
>
> I hope that in light of the above, you can understand why I asked Steve to
> consider using back channels to get clarification on Firefox implementation
> of these bugs directly from a former Mozilla developer.
>
> I ask that we in the accessibility community work together for the greater
> good. Let's applaud Mozilla for having the best implementation for these 3
> accessibility bugs, compared to the other browsers. Let's get the other
> browser vendors on board!
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad
>
>
>

From: Vlad Alexander (XStandard)
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 2:03PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steve,

The problem you mention is caused because Firefox renders alternate text as text on a graphic rather than as real text. Our bug report #3:

http://a11ybugs.org/bug-3.php

.. addresses this issue as it states: "It would be useful to have alternate text displayed as text, rather than text on a graphic. This way, parts of alternate text could be selected, copied and alternate text would wrap. It would also be beneficial to make alternate text participate in Find operation."

> Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no
> indication that text is a replacement for an image
As it should be because alternate text is a replacement for an image, not a supplement to it. Approach this from another direction - would one expect a supplement to alternate text during a cut/paste, search and translate operations? No.

Steve, to get this project back on track, I invite you sign the petition. A united accessibility community can achieve great things and your participation would be a boost for this project. Please join us.

Regards,
-Vlad


-------- Original Message --------
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: 10/26/2011 12:38 PM
> hi Vlad,
>
> "As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of
> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all."
>
> I suggest discussion should have been public from the start. Spending 10
> mins surfing with images disabled in Firefox will provide enough evidence
> for most people to conclude that Firefox's implementation is broken. Text
> is sometimes cut off and other times overlaps other content.
>
> Due to this, getting other browsers to match Firefox's implementation does
> not achieve 'the greater good'.
>
> Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no indication that
> text is a replacement for an image, while this may be appropriate in some
> circumstances it is not in others.
>
> I would further suggest that working openly with the Firefox team to improve
> their implementation would be a necessary precursor to working on cross
> browser support.
>
> regards
> Steve
>
> On 26 October 2011 19:23, Vlad Alexander< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
>> As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
>> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of
>> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
>> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all.
>>
>> Over the 5-month period, I have exchanged about a dozen emails with one
>> browser vendor in particular. They used every possible tactic to push back
>> fixing these bugs. Throughout this process, the only leverage we had was
>> that another major browser vendor, Firefox, has a useful implementation.
>> This made these items into "bugs" rather than "feature requests". This is a
>> critical distinction! If Firefox has wrong implementation, then these items
>> are new features to other vendors. If Firefox has correct implementation,
>> then these items are bugs. Bugs can get fixed in a timely manner. New
>> accessibility features are put at the end of the queue and right now, the
>> queue is very long. And time is of the essence. Microsoft for example has a
>> multi-year release cycle. If these bugs are not fixed in IE10, it will be
>> years before they are fixed in IE11 or IE12.
>>
>> I hope that in light of the above, you can understand why I asked Steve to
>> consider using back channels to get clarification on Firefox implementation
>> of these bugs directly from a former Mozilla developer.
>>
>> I ask that we in the accessibility community work together for the greater
>> good. Let's applaud Mozilla for having the best implementation for these 3
>> accessibility bugs, compared to the other browsers. Let's get the other
>> browser vendors on board!
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Vlad
>>
>>
>>

From: lEIf H sIIII
Date: Wed, Oct 26 2011 2:09PM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steve,

What specific issue or issues are there with disabling images in
Firefox?

Bugs are usually very limited and specific. They only test a limited
set of behaviours - perhaps usually only a single bit of a larger
feature. How does the fact that Firefox can be improved, mean that it
cannot serve as example to the other browsers? Is it perhaps so that
you consider Firefox' handling of 'bug number 3' as flawed on a
*conceptual* level?

Bug number 3 can be tested on this page:
http://a11ybugs.org/bugs/3/test1.php

PS: Bug number 3 mentions that Firefox doesn't handle bug number 3 well
when the page is in quirks-mode - as can be verified in the quirks-mode
test: a11ybugs.org/bugs/3/test2.php

Leif H Silli

Steve Faulkner, Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:38:50 +0100:
> hi Vlad,
>
> "As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case of
> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all."
>
> I suggest discussion should have been public from the start. Spending 10
> mins surfing with images disabled in Firefox will provide enough evidence
> for most people to conclude that Firefox's implementation is broken. Text
> is sometimes cut off and other times overlaps other content.
>
> Due to this, getting other browsers to match Firefox's implementation does
> not achieve 'the greater good'.
>
> Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no indication that
> text is a replacement for an image, while this may be appropriate in some
> circumstances it is not in others.
>
> I would further suggest that working openly with the Firefox team to improve
> their implementation would be a necessary precursor to working on cross
> browser support.
>
> regards
> Steve
>
> On 26 October 2011 19:23, Vlad Alexander
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
>> As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and a
>> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the
>> case of
>> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match Firefox
>> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at all.
>>
>> Over the 5-month period, I have exchanged about a dozen emails with one
>> browser vendor in particular. They used every possible tactic to push back
>> fixing these bugs. Throughout this process, the only leverage we had was
>> that another major browser vendor, Firefox, has a useful implementation.
>> This made these items into "bugs" rather than "feature requests". This is a
>> critical distinction! If Firefox has wrong implementation, then these items
>> are new features to other vendors. If Firefox has correct implementation,
>> then these items are bugs. Bugs can get fixed in a timely manner. New
>> accessibility features are put at the end of the queue and right now, the
>> queue is very long. And time is of the essence. Microsoft for example has a
>> multi-year release cycle. If these bugs are not fixed in IE10, it will be
>> years before they are fixed in IE11 or IE12.
>>
>> I hope that in light of the above, you can understand why I asked Steve to
>> consider using back channels to get clarification on Firefox implementation
>> of these bugs directly from a former Mozilla developer.
>>
>> I ask that we in the accessibility community work together for the greater
>> good. Let's applaud Mozilla for having the best implementation for these 3
>> accessibility bugs, compared to the other browsers. Let's get the other
>> browser vendors on board!
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Vlad
>>
>>
>>

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Oct 27 2011 4:03AM
Subject: Re: The a11y bugs project
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Vlad,

you wrote:
"As it should be because alternate text is a replacement for an image, not a
supplement to it. Approach this from another direction - would one expect a
supplement to alternate text during a cut/paste, search and translate
operations? No."

sometimes yes sometimes no.

you wrote:
"Steve, to get this project back on track, I invite you sign the petition. A
united accessibility community can achieve great things and your
participation would be a boost for this project. Please join us."

You are asking me to sign somenting I do not agree with, that was decided
without any public input, so I must decline at this time.

If and when the project includes a transparent and public, consensus based
process I will gladly get involved.

regards
Stevef

On 26 October 2011 20:59, Vlad Alexander < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> The problem you mention is caused because Firefox renders alternate text as
> text on a graphic rather than as real text. Our bug report #3:
>
> http://a11ybugs.org/bug-3.php
>
> .. addresses this issue as it states: "It would be useful to have alternate
> text displayed as text, rather than text on a graphic. This way, parts of
> alternate text could be selected, copied and alternate text would wrap. It
> would also be beneficial to make alternate text participate in Find
> operation."
>
> > Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no
> > indication that text is a replacement for an image
> As it should be because alternate text is a replacement for an image, not a
> supplement to it. Approach this from another direction - would one expect a
> supplement to alternate text during a cut/paste, search and translate
> operations? No.
>
> Steve, to get this project back on track, I invite you sign the petition. A
> united accessibility community can achieve great things and your
> participation would be a boost for this project. Please join us.
>
> Regards,
> -Vlad
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Steve Faulkner
> Date: 10/26/2011 12:38 PM
> > hi Vlad,
> >
> > "As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and
> a
> > time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the case
> of
> > this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match
> Firefox
> > implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at
> all."
> >
> > I suggest discussion should have been public from the start. Spending 10
> > mins surfing with images disabled in Firefox will provide enough evidence
> > for most people to conclude that Firefox's implementation is broken.
> Text
> > is sometimes cut off and other times overlaps other content.
> >
> > Due to this, getting other browsers to match Firefox's implementation
> does
> > not achieve 'the greater good'.
> >
> > Another issue is that Firefox's implementation provides no indication
> that
> > text is a replacement for an image, while this may be appropriate in some
> > circumstances it is not in others.
> >
> > I would further suggest that working openly with the Firefox team to
> improve
> > their implementation would be a necessary precursor to working on cross
> > browser support.
> >
> > regards
> > Steve
> >
> > On 26 October 2011 19:23, Vlad Alexander< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >wrote:
> >
> >> As with any campaign, there is a time for discussion, a cut-off time and
> a
> >> time for everyone to come together to achieve a greater good. In the
> case of
> >> this project, the greater good is to have these bugs fixed to match
> Firefox
> >> implementation (which Steve questions) than not to have them fixed at
> all.
> >>
> >> Over the 5-month period, I have exchanged about a dozen emails with one
> >> browser vendor in particular. They used every possible tactic to push
> back
> >> fixing these bugs. Throughout this process, the only leverage we had was
> >> that another major browser vendor, Firefox, has a useful implementation.
> >> This made these items into "bugs" rather than "feature requests". This
> is a
> >> critical distinction! If Firefox has wrong implementation, then these
> items
> >> are new features to other vendors. If Firefox has correct
> implementation,
> >> then these items are bugs. Bugs can get fixed in a timely manner. New
> >> accessibility features are put at the end of the queue and right now,
> the
> >> queue is very long. And time is of the essence. Microsoft for example
> has a
> >> multi-year release cycle. If these bugs are not fixed in IE10, it will
> be
> >> years before they are fixed in IE11 or IE12.
> >>
> >> I hope that in light of the above, you can understand why I asked Steve
> to
> >> consider using back channels to get clarification on Firefox
> implementation
> >> of these bugs directly from a former Mozilla developer.
> >>
> >> I ask that we in the accessibility community work together for the
> greater
> >> good. Let's applaud Mozilla for having the best implementation for these
> 3
> >> accessibility bugs, compared to the other browsers. Let's get the other
> >> browser vendors on board!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> -Vlad
> >>
> >>
> >>