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From: Laura Roberts
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 1:00PM
Subject: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
No previous message | Next message →

From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
.

Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the
PAC checker.
The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.

If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen readers
read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.

Anyone have some insight into this?

--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 2:28PM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Which version of PAC are you using?

The software is now back in the hands of its original developers (yes!) and PAC 2024 has been released. Download from https://support.axes4.com/hc/en-us/articles/7371921627794-PDF-Accessibility-Checker-PAC-2024 .

If PAC is flagging an error, you might want to contact axes 4 directly and let them know about it. They are super-concerned about making PAC the best checker tool around!

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Laura Roberts
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2023 3:01 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.

From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
.

Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.

If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen readers read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.

Anyone have some insight into this?

--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422

From: Joshua Hori
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 3:02PM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello Laura,

That’s the only time WCAG is used on the document, so putting a span over it would indeed be correct. You can tell the checker to ignore in this case.

Sometimes the document may start off with Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG). If this is the case, the span is unnecessary and should be marked with a yellow notification area for manual review. Manual review should see that as an accessibility error and remove the span.

Best,

Joshua

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:01 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
.

Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the
PAC checker.
The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.

If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen readers
read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.

Anyone have some insight into this?

--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 3:02PM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

I just did a quick test on a sample doc and was able to add expansion
text to a Span tag and then pass PAC 2021 and PAC 2024 cleanly. So I'm
not sure that the example or the PAC 2024 are wrong.

Though the W3C instructions for creating a new Span tag didn't work for
me using Acrobat Pro DC: I created the Span tag by using the "Reading
Order" tool, selecting the text, marking it as a Paragraph, and then
manually editing the tag properties and changing it from Paragraph to
Span using the "Accessibility Tags" panel. THEN I added the Expansion
Text in the Content tab of the Object Properties.

The error message you quote often pops up when there is an issue with
the "Placement" attribute of a tag: especially when an "inline" tag is
placed at the root level, or when a "block" tag is placed within another
"block" tag incorrectly. Normally a Span tag has an "inline" placement
and it must be nested within a tag/container with a "block" placement. I
wonder if somehow your Span tag has the wrong placement attribute?

Phil.

On 2023-12-15 3:00 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
> From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
> .
>
> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the
> PAC checker.
> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
>
> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen readers
> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
>
> Anyone have some insight into this?
>

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 3:41PM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Quick follow-up. If you created your Span following the instructions
provided by the W3C Example #1, then definitely double-check that your
Span is properly nested within a block tag.

I finally figured out how to follow their instructions and create a Span
that way [eye roll], but it dropped the new Span into the root of the
Document, which may produce the error about "possibly inappropriate" use
of a Span structure element. If this happens to you, then you would then
need to move the Span back to where you actually want it.

The method I described using the Reading Order tool will preserve the
tag placement better in both the Tag tree and in the Content panel,
though it requires manual editing of the tag afterwards.

Phil.

On 2023-12-15 5:02 p.m., Philip Kiff wrote:
> I just did a quick test on a sample doc and was able to add expansion
> text to a Span tag and then pass PAC 2021 and PAC 2024 cleanly. So I'm
> not sure that the example or the PAC 2024 are wrong.
>
> Though the W3C instructions for creating a new Span tag didn't work
> for me using Acrobat Pro DC: I created the Span tag by using the
> "Reading Order" tool, selecting the text, marking it as a Paragraph,
> and then manually editing the tag properties and changing it from
> Paragraph to Span using the "Accessibility Tags" panel. THEN I added
> the Expansion Text in the Content tab of the Object Properties.
>
> The error message you quote often pops up when there is an issue with
> the "Placement" attribute of a tag: especially when an "inline" tag is
> placed at the root level, or when a "block" tag is placed within
> another "block" tag incorrectly. Normally a Span tag has an "inline"
> placement and it must be nested within a tag/container with a "block"
> placement. I wonder if somehow your Span tag has the wrong placement
> attribute?
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2023-12-15 3:00 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
>>  From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
>>
>> .
>>
>> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning
>> on the
>> PAC checker.
>> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
>>
>> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen
>> readers
>> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
>>
>> Anyone have some insight into this?
>>
> > > >

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Fri, Dec 15 2023 9:15PM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Bevi - I am using the 2021 PAC checker - I'll try the 2024 tomorrow when I
get a chance.

Phil, that's exactly what I did and I get the yellow warning. The odd thing
is that if I just tag the acronym as a paragraph, then pull the word out of
the paragraph tag and put it in with the original - I get no yellow warning
and the screen readers still read the expansion text.

I'm very familiar with the Placement/Block issue of inline objects, but
when it comes to span tags, it doesn't matter whether I add placement block
to the attribute or not, I get the same error regardless.

Error with Placement/Block added to attributes:

[image: image.png]

Sample with span (doesn't matter whether it's inside a heading tag or a P
tag.
[image: image.png]

Sample of hack that gives no error and JAWS/NVDA still reads expansion text:
[image: image.png]

Expansion Text (in case anyone is wondering)
[image: image.png]

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Sat, Dec 16 2023 6:01AM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

In the last of the sample images you sent, the Object Properties shows
that the Span tag has a Structure Tag of Heading Level 2. In my test
file, my Span tag has a Structure Tag of Span. The parent Heading 2
container has a structure tag of Heading 2.

I think PAC is flagging it in your case because your Span for some
reason has a structural container value of Heading 2, and that means
that you actually have a Heading 2 structure nested inside another
Heading 2 structure, instead of a Span inside a Heading 2. I'm not 100%
sure how that got configured that way, or why yours ends up like that
but my sample doesn't in either PAC 2021 or PAC 2024.

Attaching two screenshots from my sample showing the tag structure on
mine. One shows the Object Properties and Accessibility Tags tree while
the other shows how the containers appear in the Content sidebar. The
Object Properties of the Span container in the WC3 example also show a
Structure Tag of Span even while the tag is nested in their case inside
an LBody.

Phil.

On 2023-12-15 11:15 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
> Bevi - I am using the 2021 PAC checker - I'll try the 2024 tomorrow when I
> get a chance.
>
> Phil, that's exactly what I did and I get the yellow warning. The odd thing
> is that if I just tag the acronym as a paragraph, then pull the word out of
> the paragraph tag and put it in with the original - I get no yellow warning
> and the screen readers still read the expansion text.
>
> I'm very familiar with the Placement/Block issue of inline objects, but
> when it comes to span tags, it doesn't matter whether I add placement block
> to the attribute or not, I get the same error regardless.
>
> Error with Placement/Block added to attributes:
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> Sample with span (doesn't matter whether it's inside a heading tag or a P
> tag.
> [image: image.png]
>
> Sample of hack that gives no error and JAWS/NVDA still reads expansion text:
> [image: image.png]
>
> Expansion Text (in case anyone is wondering)
> [image: image.png]
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:02 PM Philip Kiff< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I just did a quick test on a sample doc and was able to add expansion
>> text to a Span tag and then pass PAC 2021 and PAC 2024 cleanly. So I'm
>> not sure that the example or the PAC 2024 are wrong.
>>
>> Though the W3C instructions for creating a new Span tag didn't work for
>> me using Acrobat Pro DC: I created the Span tag by using the "Reading
>> Order" tool, selecting the text, marking it as a Paragraph, and then
>> manually editing the tag properties and changing it from Paragraph to
>> Span using the "Accessibility Tags" panel. THEN I added the Expansion
>> Text in the Content tab of the Object Properties.
>>
>> The error message you quote often pops up when there is an issue with
>> the "Placement" attribute of a tag: especially when an "inline" tag is
>> placed at the root level, or when a "block" tag is placed within another
>> "block" tag incorrectly. Normally a Span tag has an "inline" placement
>> and it must be nested within a tag/container with a "block" placement. I
>> wonder if somehow your Span tag has the wrong placement attribute?
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2023-12-15 3:00 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
>>> From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
>>>
>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
>>> .
>>>
>>> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on
>> the
>>> PAC checker.
>>> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
>>>
>>> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen
>> readers
>>> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
>>>
>>> Anyone have some insight into this?
>>>
>> >> >> List archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> > > List archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> Address list messages = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Sat, Dec 16 2023 7:38AM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Yeah ignore that heading level 2. I was taking a screenshot of the tag I'd
pulled it of the container. The original one has the correct span tag there

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 8:01 AM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> In the last of the sample images you sent, the Object Properties shows
> that the Span tag has a Structure Tag of Heading Level 2. In my test
> file, my Span tag has a Structure Tag of Span. The parent Heading 2
> container has a structure tag of Heading 2.
>
> I think PAC is flagging it in your case because your Span for some
> reason has a structural container value of Heading 2, and that means
> that you actually have a Heading 2 structure nested inside another
> Heading 2 structure, instead of a Span inside a Heading 2. I'm not 100%
> sure how that got configured that way, or why yours ends up like that
> but my sample doesn't in either PAC 2021 or PAC 2024.
>
> Attaching two screenshots from my sample showing the tag structure on
> mine. One shows the Object Properties and Accessibility Tags tree while
> the other shows how the containers appear in the Content sidebar. The
> Object Properties of the Span container in the WC3 example also show a
> Structure Tag of Span even while the tag is nested in their case inside
> an LBody.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2023-12-15 11:15 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
> > Bevi - I am using the 2021 PAC checker - I'll try the 2024 tomorrow when
> I
> > get a chance.
> >
> > Phil, that's exactly what I did and I get the yellow warning. The odd
> thing
> > is that if I just tag the acronym as a paragraph, then pull the word out
> of
> > the paragraph tag and put it in with the original - I get no yellow
> warning
> > and the screen readers still read the expansion text.
> >
> > I'm very familiar with the Placement/Block issue of inline objects, but
> > when it comes to span tags, it doesn't matter whether I add placement
> block
> > to the attribute or not, I get the same error regardless.
> >
> > Error with Placement/Block added to attributes:
> >
> > [image: image.png]
> >
> > Sample with span (doesn't matter whether it's inside a heading tag or a P
> > tag.
> > [image: image.png]
> >
> > Sample of hack that gives no error and JAWS/NVDA still reads expansion
> text:
> > [image: image.png]
> >
> > Expansion Text (in case anyone is wondering)
> > [image: image.png]
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:02 PM Philip Kiff< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> I just did a quick test on a sample doc and was able to add expansion
> >> text to a Span tag and then pass PAC 2021 and PAC 2024 cleanly. So I'm
> >> not sure that the example or the PAC 2024 are wrong.
> >>
> >> Though the W3C instructions for creating a new Span tag didn't work for
> >> me using Acrobat Pro DC: I created the Span tag by using the "Reading
> >> Order" tool, selecting the text, marking it as a Paragraph, and then
> >> manually editing the tag properties and changing it from Paragraph to
> >> Span using the "Accessibility Tags" panel. THEN I added the Expansion
> >> Text in the Content tab of the Object Properties.
> >>
> >> The error message you quote often pops up when there is an issue with
> >> the "Placement" attribute of a tag: especially when an "inline" tag is
> >> placed at the root level, or when a "block" tag is placed within another
> >> "block" tag incorrectly. Normally a Span tag has an "inline" placement
> >> and it must be nested within a tag/container with a "block" placement. I
> >> wonder if somehow your Span tag has the wrong placement attribute?
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >> On 2023-12-15 3:00 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
> >>> From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
> >>>
> >>
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on
> >> the
> >>> PAC checker.
> >>> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
> >>>
> >>> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen
> >> readers
> >>> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone have some insight into this?
> >>>
> >> > >> > >> List archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> >
> >
> > > > > > List archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Sat, Dec 16 2023 8:03AM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh drats, I had hoped we'd narrowed the issue down. It's a bit of a
mystery to me, too, then. As Bevi says, maybe folks working on the PAC
will have an idea why it's still being flagged in the test.

Phil.

On 2023-12-16 9:38 a.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
> Yeah ignore that heading level 2. I was taking a screenshot of the tag I'd
> pulled it of the container. The original one has the correct span tag there
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 8:01 AM Philip Kiff< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> In the last of the sample images you sent, the Object Properties shows
>> that the Span tag has a Structure Tag of Heading Level 2. In my test
>> file, my Span tag has a Structure Tag of Span. The parent Heading 2
>> container has a structure tag of Heading 2.
>>
>> I think PAC is flagging it in your case because your Span for some
>> reason has a structural container value of Heading 2, and that means
>> that you actually have a Heading 2 structure nested inside another
>> Heading 2 structure, instead of a Span inside a Heading 2. I'm not 100%
>> sure how that got configured that way, or why yours ends up like that
>> but my sample doesn't in either PAC 2021 or PAC 2024.
>>
>> Attaching two screenshots from my sample showing the tag structure on
>> mine. One shows the Object Properties and Accessibility Tags tree while
>> the other shows how the containers appear in the Content sidebar. The
>> Object Properties of the Span container in the WC3 example also show a
>> Structure Tag of Span even while the tag is nested in their case inside
>> an LBody.
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2023-12-15 11:15 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
>>> Bevi - I am using the 2021 PAC checker - I'll try the 2024 tomorrow when
>> I
>>> get a chance.
>>>
>>> Phil, that's exactly what I did and I get the yellow warning. The odd
>> thing
>>> is that if I just tag the acronym as a paragraph, then pull the word out
>> of
>>> the paragraph tag and put it in with the original - I get no yellow
>> warning
>>> and the screen readers still read the expansion text.
>>>
>>> I'm very familiar with the Placement/Block issue of inline objects, but
>>> when it comes to span tags, it doesn't matter whether I add placement
>> block
>>> to the attribute or not, I get the same error regardless.
>>>
>>> Error with Placement/Block added to attributes:
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> Sample with span (doesn't matter whether it's inside a heading tag or a P
>>> tag.
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> Sample of hack that gives no error and JAWS/NVDA still reads expansion
>> text:
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> Expansion Text (in case anyone is wondering)
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:02 PM Philip Kiff< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just did a quick test on a sample doc and was able to add expansion
>>>> text to a Span tag and then pass PAC 2021 and PAC 2024 cleanly. So I'm
>>>> not sure that the example or the PAC 2024 are wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Though the W3C instructions for creating a new Span tag didn't work for
>>>> me using Acrobat Pro DC: I created the Span tag by using the "Reading
>>>> Order" tool, selecting the text, marking it as a Paragraph, and then
>>>> manually editing the tag properties and changing it from Paragraph to
>>>> Span using the "Accessibility Tags" panel. THEN I added the Expansion
>>>> Text in the Content tab of the Object Properties.
>>>>
>>>> The error message you quote often pops up when there is an issue with
>>>> the "Placement" attribute of a tag: especially when an "inline" tag is
>>>> placed at the root level, or when a "block" tag is placed within another
>>>> "block" tag incorrectly. Normally a Span tag has an "inline" placement
>>>> and it must be nested within a tag/container with a "block" placement. I
>>>> wonder if somehow your Span tag has the wrong placement attribute?
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>> On 2023-12-15 3:00 p.m., Laura Roberts wrote:
>>>>> From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
>>>>>
>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on
>>>> the
>>>>> PAC checker.
>>>>> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen
>>>> readers
>>>>> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have some insight into this?

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Mon, Dec 18 2023 7:45AM
Subject: Re: WC3 Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on the PAC checker.
← Previous message | No next message

Just an update. The 2024 PAC checker doesn't give a warning for span tags
with expansion text. One less headache! Thanks everyone for helping.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 3:00 PM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> From WC3 on tagging acronyms:
>
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/pdf/PDF8.html#:~:text=In%20a%20tagged%20PDF%20document,create%20a%20new%20Span%20tag
> .
>
> Example #1 of tagging acronym expansion text yields a yellow warning on
> the PAC checker.
> The warning is: Possibly inappropriate of a span structure element.
>
> If you don't use the span tag at all for the word, then the screen readers
> read the expansion text just fine and you get no PAC errors.
>
> Anyone have some insight into this?
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Laura Roberts
> 413-588-8422
>


--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422