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Thread: difference in sounce between and

Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:36AM
Subject: difference in sounce between and 
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Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads versus ? Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:45AM
Subject: Re: difference in sound between and 
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Oiy! I tried to figure this out last spring. I *think* I concluded that it
doesn't really make a difference at this point in time.

I wrote up my experiences in my blog
Long URL:
http://jebswebs.net/blog/2011/06/html5-i-b-em-strong-whats-the-scoop/
Short URL: http://tinyurl.com/3p8xm22

If you get a definitive answer, I'd love to hear it!

~j

John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 1:33 PM
To: 'WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )'
Subject: [WebAIM] difference in sounce between and 

Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader
reads versus ? Does it make a difference which is used if the
purpose is to convey emphasis?

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:51AM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads versus ?

I've never seen a difference in handling between and . I
suppose a screen reader should read louder or with more
inflection than . But, most screen readers don't do anything
different with this markup anyway. And the few that do or that are
customized to read them differently don't treat and or
 and any differently - they read the presentational and
 the same as they do the semantic and . While this is
certainly incorrect behavior, this markup is generally used
incorrectly anyway, so it's not all bad.

> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?

Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and
follow the HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far
as accessibility goes.

Jared

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 12:09PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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6.10.2011 20:49, Jared Smith wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Angela French< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads versus?
>
> I've never seen a difference in handling between and . I
> suppose a screen reader should read louder or with more
> inflection than . But, most screen readers don't do anything
> different with this markup anyway.

There's the additional point that we cannot really expect software to be
changed much in this respect, because the HTML5 drafts redefine the
semantics of and . They are no more supposed to indicate
different levels of emphasis but "emphasis" vs. "importance" It's a
confusing issue, in my mind, and in most people's minds, and it's
difficult to say how they _should_ be rendered in non-visual presentation.

>> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?
>
> Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and
> follow the HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far
> as accessibility goes.

There's surely a point in following the current HTML specifications as
regards to semantics of elements. But it's not a particularly strong
point, as most stakeholders (like authors of browsers and assistive
software, and web authors, and search engines) don't take the semantics
very seriously. And the semantics will be changed if HTML5 gets approved.

I think the most important thing is to be consistent. If you use markup
consistently, it is easier to tune the rendering with style sheets. As
long as you know what you are doing - e.g., use (or ) for words
emphasized in sentence context and (or ) for words that
should be highlighted - you need not worry too much about phrase-level
markup.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 12:42PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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Jared - I wanted to clarify my question. I meant toask/ imply is there any different between or to convey emphasis?

>> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey
>emphasis?
>
>Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and follow the
>HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far as accessibility
>goes.
>
>Jared
>

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:06PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Angela French wrote:
> Jared - I wanted to clarify my question. I meant toask/ imply is there any different between or to convey emphasis?

In HTML4 and XHTML, indicates emphasis and indicates
strong emphasis. By the way, I mixed these up in my previous e-mail -
it should indicate that screen readers might read louder or
with more inflection than . Even I can't keep them straight.

In HTML5, represents stress emphasis of its contents and 
represents strong importance for its contents. As Jukka notes, the
differences are subtle and rather pedantic. The best way I can explain
it is that conveys a visual designation, distinction, or
emphasis, but does not convey importance. The HTML5 spec has some
examples that may or may not help -
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element

Of note is that in HTML4 there are two levels of emphasis - either
 or . In HTML5, you can nest and/or to
convey multiple levels of emphasis or importance. While I think this
is really, REALLY odd, you can see
that there might be some applications for it. Perhaps if you nest
enough of them, JAWS might lose its voice from screaming at you?

In all cases, and are not for emphasis or importance, but for
other (yet again convoluted by HTML5) things.

But as has been mentioned, none of this really matters in practice.

Jared

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:27PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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conveys visual designation? Really? I would have left that up to <bold> which is presentational/visual.

I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system, and they are using and <italic> within instructions - neither of which is structural or, I assume, will convey the intended importance to a screen reader user.

. The best way I can explain it is
>that conveys a visual designation, distinction, or emphasis, but does
>not convey importance. The HTML5 spec has some examples that may or may
>not help - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element
>
>Of note is that in HTML4 there are two levels of emphasis - either or
>. In HTML5, you can nest and/or to convey multiple
>levels of emphasis or importance. While I think this is really,
>REALLY odd, you can see that there might be
>some applications for it. Perhaps if you nest enough of them, JAWS might
>lose its voice from screaming at you?
>
>In all cases, and are not for emphasis or importance, but for other (yet
>again convoluted by HTML5) things.
>
>But as has been mentioned, none of this really matters in practice.
>
>Jared
>

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:51PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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6.10.2011 22:26, Angela French wrote:

> conveys visual designation? Really?

That's what it does, in practice, and all it does, mostly.
Theoretically, it means something else, but there's no _good_ theory
about it and, more importantly, relevant software does not care about
the theory.

> I would have left that up to <bold> which is presentational/visual.

You mean I suppose. It's a different story, but in practice, is
for most practical purposes equivalent to , whereas is
similarly equivalent to .

> I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of
> developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system,
> and they are using and <italic> within instructions - neither
> of which is structural or,

(I take it that you mean , not <italic>, which is undefined markup.)

You are correct in principle, but in practice, it's not a big deal. It's
probably better to focus on things that really matter (to accessibility,
or otherwise). I would not teach anyone to use and for any kind
of emphasis, but neither would I try to teach anyone away from such
practice.

> I assume, will convey the intended importance
> to a screen reader user.

Well, that might be a serious issue, but using and would
not help much, as indicated in this discussion. Such phrase-level markup
does not have much effect on speech rendering, and if it has an effect,
it may depend on software settings.

Thus, anything that really needs to be emphasized is best emphasized
verbally, in document content, optionally accompanied with visual
highlighting (typically, of entire paragraphs).

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 2:06PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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Great thread. Thanks. And yes, Jukka, I meant and . :-)
Curious - how do "smiley" faces come across on screen readers?

>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:webaim-forum-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jukka K. Korpela
>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 12:52 PM
>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] difference in sounce between and 
>
>6.10.2011 22:26, Angela French wrote:
>
>> conveys visual designation? Really?
>
>That's what it does, in practice, and all it does, mostly.
>Theoretically, it means something else, but there's no _good_ theory about it
>and, more importantly, relevant software does not care about the theory.
>
>> I would have left that up to <bold> which is presentational/visual.
>
>You mean I suppose. It's a different story, but in practice, is for
>most practical purposes equivalent to , whereas is similarly
>equivalent to .
>
>> I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of
>> developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system,
> > and they are using and <italic> within instructions - neither > of which
>is structural or,
>
>(I take it that you mean , not <italic>, which is undefined markup.)
>
>You are correct in principle, but in practice, it's not a big deal. It's probably
>better to focus on things that really matter (to accessibility, or otherwise). I
>would not teach anyone to use and for any kind of emphasis, but
>neither would I try to teach anyone away from such practice.
>
>> I assume, will convey the intended importance to a screen reader user.
>
>Well, that might be a serious issue, but using and would not
>help much, as indicated in this discussion. Such phrase-level markup does
>not have much effect on speech rendering, and if it has an effect, it may
>depend on software settings.
>
>Thus, anything that really needs to be emphasized is best emphasized
>verbally, in document content, optionally accompanied with visual
>highlighting (typically, of entire paragraphs).
>
>--
>Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>

From: subhash chhetri
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2011 5:24AM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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On 10/6/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader
> reads versus ? Does it make a difference which is used if the
> purpose is to convey emphasis?
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2011 12:48PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between and 
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I've never noticed a screen reader using any of these elements to change
pitch, speed, intonation, or other verbal attribute to convey
hierarchical level of emphasis. so, you could consider organization by
header level, use lists, or just italicize things and let readers figure
it out. If the emphasis is critical to the use of the content, e.g. for
the following paragraph, please define the emphasized phrases or words,
then you need to do something textually to ensure such important
information is clearly denoted--which may be something visual, e.g.
actually put in markers such as parenthesis, or some such.

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela French [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:27 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] difference in sounce between and 

 conveys visual designation? Really? I would have left that up to
<bold> which is presentational/visual.

I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of
developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system, and
they are using and <italic> within instructions - neither of which
is structural or, I assume, will convey the intended importance to a
screen reader user.

. The best way I can explain it is
>that conveys a visual designation, distinction, or emphasis, but
does
>not convey importance. The HTML5 spec has some examples that may or may
>not help - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element
>
>Of note is that in HTML4 there are two levels of emphasis - either 
or
>. In HTML5, you can nest and/or to convey
multiple
>levels of emphasis or importance. While I think this is really,
>REALLY odd, you can see that there might be
>some applications for it. Perhaps if you nest enough of them, JAWS
might
>lose its voice from screaming at you?
>
>In all cases, and are not for emphasis or importance, but for
other (yet
>again convoluted by HTML5) things.
>
>But as has been mentioned, none of this really matters in practice.
>
>Jared
>

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