E-mail List Archives
Thread: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
Number of posts in this thread: 24 (In chronological order)
From: Angela French
Date: Wed, May 15 2013 4:56PM
Subject: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
No previous message | Next message →
Hello,
We are having some trouble with NVDA reading form validation error messages. Have tried both role="alert" and aria-live="rude" but neither is being read. Is there something I'm missing in how to use it?
This code is on a login validation.
<div role="alert" >Login error message here</div>
<input type="submit" value="submit">
I can perceive the error message on this demo just fine: http://www.oaa-accessibility.org/example/1/
Thanks!
Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
http://www.sbctc.edu
From: Jonathan C. Cohn
Date: Wed, May 15 2013 6:23PM
Subject: Re: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Firefox? IE6? Chrome?
Sent from my iPhone
On May 15, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello,
> We are having some trouble with NVDA reading form validation error messages. Have tried both role="alert" and aria-live="rude" but neither is being read. Is there something I'm missing in how to use it?
>
> This code is on a login validation.
>
> <div role="alert" >Login error message here</div>
> <input type="submit" value="submit">
>
> I can perceive the error message on this demo just fine: http://www.oaa-accessibility.org/example/1/
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> http://www.sbctc.edu
>
> > >
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 8:57AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Below is another example from our application of a form field where the user, upon form submit, it not being notified of the validation error. For this example I have only removed class attributes and values to make it easier to read. Can anyone tell me what we are doing wrong please?
<label for="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName" id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_lblLName" ><span >*</span> Last Name:</label>
<input name="ctl00$ContentPlaceHolder1$txtLName" type="text" id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName" placeholder="required" aria-required="true" aria-labelledby="rfvLName" />
<span id="rfvLName" role="alert" >Last name required</span>
Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
http://www.sbctc.edu
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 9:03AM
Subject: Re: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Firefox 20, IE 9
>
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 9:49AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
I would question the use of a role in a span tag.
Have you tried replacing it with a block element like <p> or <div> and see
if it works then? We have come across issues when employing the span tag,
which is really more for styling, for purposes other than style.
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Below is another example from our application of a form field where the
> user, upon form submit, it not being notified of the validation error. For
> this example I have only removed class attributes and values to make it
> easier to read. Can anyone tell me what we are doing wrong please?
>
>
> <label for="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName"
> id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_lblLName" ><span >*</span> Last Name:</label>
> <input name="ctl00$ContentPlaceHolder1$txtLName" type="text"
> id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName" placeholder="required"
> aria-required="true" aria-labelledby="rfvLName" />
> <span id="rfvLName" role="alert" >Last name required</span>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> http://www.sbctc.edu
>
> > > >
--
*Susan R. Grossman*
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? My developer is out today, so I can't test this yet.
Angela French
>
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
>I would question the use of a role in a span tag.
>
>Have you tried replacing it with a block element like <p> or <div> and see if it
>works then? We have come across issues when employing the span tag, which is
>really more for styling, for purposes other than style.
>
This is very frustrating to try to figure out what will work in what browsers. Again, using NVDA, Example A on this page (http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/02/aria-alert/) does NOT read the alert in IE9. It is in a <p> tag.
It does get read in Firefox 20.
We are under pressure to get this app into production and we cannot seem to get the form validation errors to announce in NVDA (the only screen reader we have)
Angela French
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 10:47AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
You can see if it's an NVD only issue by trying with the JAWS demo. (
http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp)
Also, there is a support chart on at freedom scientific site: (This is
a Word doc
http://www.freedomscientific.com/PDF/visionloss/manuals/DevDoc/JAWS-ARIA-Support.doc)
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >I would question the use of a role in a span tag.
> >
> >Have you tried replacing it with a block element like <p> or <div> and
> see if it
> >works then? We have come across issues when employing the span tag,
> which is
> >really more for styling, for purposes other than style.
> >
>
> This is very frustrating to try to figure out what will work in what
> browsers. Again, using NVDA, Example A on this page (
> http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/02/aria-alert/) does NOT
> read the alert in IE9. It is in a <p> tag.
> It does get read in Firefox 20.
>
> We are under pressure to get this app into production and we cannot seem
> to get the form validation errors to announce in NVDA (the only screen
> reader we have)
>
> Angela French
>
> > > >
--
*Susan R. Grossman*
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 11:41AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
This will help, http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2012/06/html5-accessibility-chops-aria-rolealert-browser-support/ Method 4 has the widest support.
I made a simple tooltip demo based on Method 4 that uses alert role to automatically announce tooltip content on focus, http://pauljadam.com/demos/tooltips.html
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On May 16, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Below is another example from our application of a form field where the user, upon form submit, it not being notified of the validation error. For this example I have only removed class attributes and values to make it easier to read. Can anyone tell me what we are doing wrong please?
>
>
> <label for="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName" id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_lblLName" ><span >*</span> Last Name:</label>
> <input name="ctl00$ContentPlaceHolder1$txtLName" type="text" id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_txtLName" placeholder="required" aria-required="true" aria-labelledby="rfvLName" />
> <span id="rfvLName" role="alert" >Last name required</span>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> http://www.sbctc.edu
>
> > >
From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 11:41AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Can I remind everyone that you must not use the JAWS demo version for testing - the license terms explicitly prohibit this. You are only allowed to use it to determine whether or not to buy the full version. Some of us spend a great deal of money ensuring we are correctly licensed - we may not like it but it's just one of the costs of being in this business.
Steve Green
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 12:32PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Wasn't suggesting JAWS as a permanent testing tool. But if you don't have
it, i do recommend testing with it on a single item or two, and then
considering purchasing it when you see it handles differently than NVDA.
Didn't mention the time limit specifically because I don't advocate it as a
testing tool. Do own my a personal copy, and have gotten many corporations
to purchase it, after showing them how important it is in testing - by
getting them to try testing with the trial.
If companies never try it for testing, and never see how they would benefit
from purchasing it, they won't buy it. That's what a trial is.
If I've misinterpreted what trial means, and what the license for long-term
testing is saying, tell me.
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Steve Green <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Can I remind everyone that you must not use the JAWS demo version for
> testing - the license terms explicitly prohibit this. You are only allowed
> to use it to determine whether or not to buy the full version. Some of us
> spend a great deal of money ensuring we are correctly licensed - we may not
> like it but it's just one of the costs of being in this business.
>
> Steve Green
>
>
>
From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 12:44PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
It sounds like you understand how the license works. However, I encounter a lot of companies that have used the trial version continuously for many years, and many of these encourage other people to do the same.
I am not sure anyone on this list actually does need to do a trial. We all know (because it has been stated a thousand times) that all screen readers behave differently, so if you are designing or testing a website that has to work with JAWS, then you have to have JAWS. And on the flip side, very few people are going to spend $1000+ on it if they don't have to.
Steve Green
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 12:49PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Good points made. Didn't realize the prevalence.
Susan
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Steve Green <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It sounds like you understand how the license works. However, I encounter
> a lot of companies that have used the trial version continuously for many
> years, and many of these encourage other people to do the same.
>
> I am not sure anyone on this list actually does need to do a trial. We all
> know (because it has been stated a thousand times) that all screen readers
> behave differently, so if you are designing or testing a website that has
> to work with JAWS, then you have to have JAWS. And on the flip side, very
> few people are going to spend $1000+ on it if they don't have to.
>
> Steve Green
>
>
>
From: Akshi Kakar
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 12:56PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Susan,
I am going to be involved in testing our compatibility with JAWS but have never tested with it before. How would you suggest we teach ourselves this process of testing? I have used the demo version of JAWS to test before but I am guessing the actual testing should be more rigorous.
Thanks,
Akshi
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:07PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
I don't recommend a dev. even try and fully learn jaws. there are better
ways to use a devs time. you should really find a reel jaws user to test
and watch them run through the process, because as much as you try to
become a jaws expert you will not get the same outcome as a reel jaws
user. after all you have a mouse and a screen the temptation to use them
is always there. it is valuable to get a screen reader dependent user to
go through so not only do you see how your project does but what steps the
user goes through to do what you want them to do that sometimes is more
informative. Its ok to test a few things as a sited person with haws but
you will never get the full useable test without a reel live user.
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces
From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:24PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
I largely agree with Lucia, but if you put in enough effort you can develop a very good understanding of what screen reader users will and won't be able to do. There is a wide variety of skill levels among screen reader users so I would not get too hung up on trying to behave exactly like a screen reader user because they are all different.
It's certainly a lot of work though. I would guess I spent a couple of weeks observing screen reader users before learning to use a screen reader myself, and much more time getting fluent in its use and observing more people since then. I would now reckon to pick up at least 80% of the issues we would find during user testing, which is often enough given that user testing itself gives variable results.
Spread across a few months, it's not an unreasonable amount of effort but it's not something you can learn in a few days. Learning all the keystrokes is the easy part. The difficult part is learning how people use a screen reader, how they build and maintain a mental model of pages and how they comprehend what they hear.
Steve Green
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:29PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Adobe has a white paper that teaches how to use JAWS and Window-Eyes.
http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/pdfs/accessing-pdf-sr.pdf
Very helpful for developers so that they become familiar with JAWS and how
it is used.
But as someone else said, real testing should be done by a JAWS user. We
developers can only test the "light" stuff.
As a developer/designer, I use JAWS throughout development to test reading
order, make sure that the document structure is correct, and that graphics
and their Alt-text read correctly. Especially helpful when dealing with very
complex designs, such as multiple column layouts in Word/InDesign/PDFs,
tables, sidebars, etc. I can quickly find errors and fix them before the
document goes to the reviewer/tester.
Testing navigation issues, headings, etc. is best done by a skilled JAWS
tester, not me!
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:37PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Once, where I worked years ago, we had a lab with JAWS in it. I didn't know how to use it and the manual that came with it was in Braille. I am sighted so that did me no good. Do they still ship with just a Braille manual?
>
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:51PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Steve wrote: "The difficult part is learning how people use a screen reader,
how they build and maintain a mental model of pages and how they comprehend
what they hear."
So well put, Steve.
I've had disabled people in my near circle of family and friends my entire
life, and I'm always amazed at how each individual adapts in his or her own
way to make things work for them. Well, as much as possible that is.
Our role as developers/designers: to create websites, publications, and
office documents that not only work for sighted and able users, but are
flexible and adaptable for those using AT as well. Understanding our
audience that uses AT - all AT, not just screen readers - is critical.
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 1:56PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
As far as I am aware JAWS has always shipped with a printed manual and a cassette tape as well as the Braille manual - it certainly has in every version we have bought since version 7. Of course I have no idea if the printed version is the same as the Braille one.
Steve Green
From: Susan Grossman
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 2:54PM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
We are lucky to have a skilled, good natured JAWS user who can test and do
screen shares - and give me pointers without laughing at me too much. But
I'm a contractor and don't always have that luxury.
When I test, I keep the short-keys handy, turn off my monitor, set my mouse
aside and test things like link lists or navigating by headings mostly.
Of course I do know what the pages look like. Some things you just have to
listen to - there may be odd code you don't see that JAWS will read that
you'll have to track down.
Learned to keep JAWS default. Not everyone turns on title tags, etc. A lot
of users do customize, but the variance is pretty high, so default is best.
A lot of the testing is done by looking at source code, running validators
(1st rule is valid HTML, and browser tools - the table and aria views are
nice. Also turn off styles to see reading order, tab through, etc.
And some things you can't find with a screen reader. For instance, you can
get into some modals in JAWS that you can't get in with just a keyboard.
Tabbing order may be set and not follow reading order, color contrast may
be incorrect for the font size, and so forth.
Susan
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Steve Green <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> As far as I am aware JAWS has always shipped with a printed manual and a
> cassette tape as well as the Braille manual - it certainly has in every
> version we have bought since version 7. Of course I have no idea if the
> printed version is the same as the Braille one.
>
> Steve Green
>
>
From: Dylan Barrell
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 3:18PM
Subject: Re: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
Angela,
getting aria-live to work correctly in a cross-browser and cross AT and
cross-platform way is quite complicated.
There are a few of rules you must adhere to
1) Make sure the elements withe the role(s) are not display:none and not
visibility:hidden, they can be off screen
2) Make sure you have a role (log, alert) as well as aria-live (polite,
assertive) (rude does not exist)
3) ensure you have the aria-atomic attribute set appropriately
4) Make sure that all elements that have aria-live applied are inserted at
or very near document ready
The ARIA spec states that some of the above is optional, but really if you
want it to work everywhere, you have to adhere to the above.
As an fyi - I would not suggest the use of aria-live for individual form
field error messages, in particular if there might be multiple simultaneous
errors. Sometime AT will just swallow the messages. I would suggest another
technique such as aria-describedby and focus management, or additional
label text and focus management. You can use aria-live for automatically
announcing the summary of the errors if you have one.
If you're still having issues, email me off list and I will help if I can.
--Dylan
From: Angela French
Date: Thu, May 16 2013 3:28PM
Subject: Re: role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | Next message →
What does #4 "document ready" mean?
>
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Fri, May 17 2013 9:41AM
Subject: Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA
← Previous message | No next message
The Braille that comes with JAWS is actually a Quick Reference Guide, not a full manual. I believe there is also an ink-print quick reference manual -- not a full manual. All the JAWS documentation is available through JAWS Help Insert-h or on-line. There are also audio files MP3's and DAISY books on specific topics.
Dave