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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Jonathan H
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 1:51AM
Subject: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
No previous message | Next message →

Hi; first posting here.

To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.

After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
http://goo.gl/6oyiGc

Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
page.
"Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!

Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
priority.
Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.

Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
where in a list of words it is a bug.

So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.

It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
and https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser

PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks again.

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 2:07AM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jonathan, have starred and changed to regression bug, flagged as
accessibility and ccd one of the google acc engineers.

hope that helps.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 18 April 2014 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi; first posting here.
>
> To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
> keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
> SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
>
> After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
> different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
> http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
>
> Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
> difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
> with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
> page.
> "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
>
> Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
> the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
> the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
> priority.
> Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
>
> Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
> difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
> where in a list of words it is a bug.
>
> So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
> it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
>
> It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> and
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
>
> PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
> carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
> input is greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks again.
> > > >

From: Jonathan H
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 2:42AM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

Many, many thanks Steve. Wish I'd posted here 3 days ago! So much time
wasted fighting ignorance. Sigh.
On Apr 18, 2014 9:08 AM, "Steve Faulkner" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Jonathan, have starred and changed to regression bug, flagged as
> accessibility and ccd one of the google acc engineers.
>
> hope that helps.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
>
>
> On 18 April 2014 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi; first posting here.
> >
> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
> > keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
> > SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
> >
> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
> > different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
> >
> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
> > difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
> > with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
> > page.
> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
> >
> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
> > the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
> > the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
> > priority.
> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
> >
> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
> > difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
> > where in a list of words it is a bug.
> >
> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
> > it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
> >
> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> >
> >
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> > and
> >
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
> >
> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
> > carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
> > input is greatly appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 3:15AM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600

Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi; first posting here.
>
> To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
> keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
> SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
>
> After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
> different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
> http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
>
> Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
> difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
> with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
> page.
> "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
>
> Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
> the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
> the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
> priority.
> Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
>
> Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
> difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
> where in a list of words it is a bug.
>
> So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
> it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
>
> It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> and https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
>
> PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
> carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
> input is greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks again.
> > >

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question as well. I
attempted to edit your question since saving a link is not a mission
critical failure as you mentioned there.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess
> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > Hi; first posting here.
> >
> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
> > keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
> > SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
> >
> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
> > different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
> >
> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
> > difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
> > with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
> > page.
> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
> >
> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
> > the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
> > the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
> > priority.
> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
> >
> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
> > difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
> > where in a list of words it is a bug.
> >
> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
> > it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
> >
> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> >
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> > and
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
> >
> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
> > carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
> > input is greatly appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > > > > > > > > >

From: Daniel Tang (dtang)
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 11:31AM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users.Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

What do I have to say about this in order to support your cause?

Daniel Tang (dtang)


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan H
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 12:51 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.

Hi; first posting here.

To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.

After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
http://goo.gl/6oyiGc

Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current page.
"Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!

Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the priority.
Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.

Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on where in a list of words it is a bug.

So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.

It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
and https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser

PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks again.

From: Jonathan H
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 12:05PM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

On 18 April 2014 16:38, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question as well.

"As well" as what? Andhy would I want to do that?

> I attempted to edit your question since saving a link is not a mission
> critical failure as you mentioned there.

OK, seeing as you didn't respond to my points on Stackoverflow, I
don't wish to turn this into a flame war, so perhaps the Webaim
community can guide me as to whether my points are reasonable.

My SO question made it clear it was a question relating to
accessibility for users relying on keyboard-shortcuts solely affecting
browsers built round the blink rendering engine, ie: Google Chrome.

So your first action was to remove the following tags I had added.
Here they are with their SO descriptions.

*blink* "Blink is an open source rendering engine forked from WebKit.
It is included in Google Chrome 28+ and Opera 14+." -
- I made it clear in the first sentence that my issue is only with
these browsers.

*Accessibility* "The practice of making software which functions
smoothly for users with a variety of disabilities, including
blindness, deafness, and paralysis among others."
- I explained clearly this was an issue affecting users who rely on
the keyboard. I even mentioned blind users specifically.

*keyboard-shortcuts* "Keyboard shortcuts provide quick access to
application or system actions via combinatorial key presses".
- I explained clearly that this issue ONLY affected users relying on
keyboard shortcuts.

So, why did you remove those three tags?

You ADDED the tag "javascript" - this relates to the DOM, not
javascript. I had already made it clear that I had tried some
Javascript suggestions but these were not relevant.

In your SO reply, you wrote:

> "The part about "Save link as..." is not really relevant here".

"Save link as" is ENTIRELY relevant here - the example was to
demonstrate the problem, not to give a full use-case scenario for one
user's particular browsing habits. Given that this makes saving files
impossible (ie: a showstopper) IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES for users who
rely on the "keyboard shortcuts", who are usually also "accessibility"
technology users,

And as for "not a mission critical failure", your mission is to
imagine you rely on the keyboard, you use Chrome, and you want to
download the first link on the page, it's a very important file.
Given that you wouldn't able to because of what you, yourself
described as "a bug", I'd say that was "mission failed", wouldn't you?

You also wrote:

> I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question

Here's what Stackoverflow is:

http://stackoverflow.com/tour
- "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and
enthusiast programmers".

I am programming a site for visually impaired users. I asked a
question about programming. I used tags.

Incidentally, sometime in the past few hours, someone has downrated my
question. Straight answer please: was that you?

Here's what downrating is for:

http://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down
> "When should I vote down?
> Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect.
> When you vote down, you are nudging that content "down" the page, so it will be seen by fewer people. Voting down answers is not something we want you to take lightly, so it is not free.
> The up-vote privilege comes first because that's what you should focus on: pushing great content to the top. Down-voting should be reserved for extreme cases. It's not meant as a substitute for communication and editing."

My question was the result of a month of trying to track this problem
down, then a couple of very late nights of my own time putting
together some test cases to narrow it down.
I gave reproducible examples of code, I linked to a test-case page I'd
made, I showed that I had researched before posting.
So if that WAS you, can you please explain in what way my question was
"an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post"?

The net results of the downvote was that "it will be seen by fewer
people" as it says above.

I'll not get into a flame war with you on this list, it's not the
right place, but you have the right of reply, of course.
I don't know what your grudge against accessibility is, but I'll tell
you one thing - I won't be bullied into shutting up about it. If I get
told about an issue that affects accessibility, I'll attempt to
resolve that. So, sure, keep vandalising questions if you want, keep
following me round the web telling me I should delete questions if you
want but I'll tell you one thing - I've been around the internet long
enough, and I've put too much effort into making sites more
accessible, to let one web bully stop me.

Now, why were you recommending I delete my question again?

> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
>> No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess
>> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi; first posting here.
>> >
>> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
>> > keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
>> > SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
>> >
>> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
>> > different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
>> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
>> >
>> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
>> > difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
>> > with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
>> > page.
>> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
>> > the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
>> > the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
>> > priority.
>> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
>> >
>> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
>> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
>> > difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
>> > where in a list of words it is a bug.
>> >
>> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
>> > it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
>> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
>> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
>> >
>> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
>> >
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
>> > and
>> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
>> >
>> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
>> > carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
>> > input is greatly appreciated!
>> >
>> > Thanks again.
>> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>
> > >

From: James Nurthen
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 1:35PM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

I can't even open the context menu using the keyboard on Chrome. Shift+F10
appears to do nothing.

I guess this is another bug.


On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 18 April 2014 16:38, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question as well.
>
> "As well" as what? Andhy would I want to do that?
>
> > I attempted to edit your question since saving a link is not a mission
> > critical failure as you mentioned there.
>
> OK, seeing as you didn't respond to my points on Stackoverflow, I
> don't wish to turn this into a flame war, so perhaps the Webaim
> community can guide me as to whether my points are reasonable.
>
> My SO question made it clear it was a question relating to
> accessibility for users relying on keyboard-shortcuts solely affecting
> browsers built round the blink rendering engine, ie: Google Chrome.
>
> So your first action was to remove the following tags I had added.
> Here they are with their SO descriptions.
>
> *blink* "Blink is an open source rendering engine forked from WebKit.
> It is included in Google Chrome 28+ and Opera 14+." -
> - I made it clear in the first sentence that my issue is only with
> these browsers.
>
> *Accessibility* "The practice of making software which functions
> smoothly for users with a variety of disabilities, including
> blindness, deafness, and paralysis among others."
> - I explained clearly this was an issue affecting users who rely on
> the keyboard. I even mentioned blind users specifically.
>
> *keyboard-shortcuts* "Keyboard shortcuts provide quick access to
> application or system actions via combinatorial key presses".
> - I explained clearly that this issue ONLY affected users relying on
> keyboard shortcuts.
>
> So, why did you remove those three tags?
>
> You ADDED the tag "javascript" - this relates to the DOM, not
> javascript. I had already made it clear that I had tried some
> Javascript suggestions but these were not relevant.
>
> In your SO reply, you wrote:
>
> > "The part about "Save link as..." is not really relevant here".
>
> "Save link as" is ENTIRELY relevant here - the example was to
> demonstrate the problem, not to give a full use-case scenario for one
> user's particular browsing habits. Given that this makes saving files
> impossible (ie: a showstopper) IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES for users who
> rely on the "keyboard shortcuts", who are usually also "accessibility"
> technology users,
>
> And as for "not a mission critical failure", your mission is to
> imagine you rely on the keyboard, you use Chrome, and you want to
> download the first link on the page, it's a very important file.
> Given that you wouldn't able to because of what you, yourself
> described as "a bug", I'd say that was "mission failed", wouldn't you?
>
> You also wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question
>
> Here's what Stackoverflow is:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/tour
> - "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and
> enthusiast programmers".
>
> I am programming a site for visually impaired users. I asked a
> question about programming. I used tags.
>
> Incidentally, sometime in the past few hours, someone has downrated my
> question. Straight answer please: was that you?
>
> Here's what downrating is for:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down
> > "When should I vote down?
> > Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy,
> no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps
> dangerously incorrect.
> > When you vote down, you are nudging that content "down" the page, so it
> will be seen by fewer people. Voting down answers is not something we want
> you to take lightly, so it is not free.
> > The up-vote privilege comes first because that's what you should focus
> on: pushing great content to the top. Down-voting should be reserved for
> extreme cases. It's not meant as a substitute for communication and
> editing."
>
> My question was the result of a month of trying to track this problem
> down, then a couple of very late nights of my own time putting
> together some test cases to narrow it down.
> I gave reproducible examples of code, I linked to a test-case page I'd
> made, I showed that I had researched before posting.
> So if that WAS you, can you please explain in what way my question was
> "an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post"?
>
> The net results of the downvote was that "it will be seen by fewer
> people" as it says above.
>
> I'll not get into a flame war with you on this list, it's not the
> right place, but you have the right of reply, of course.
> I don't know what your grudge against accessibility is, but I'll tell
> you one thing - I won't be bullied into shutting up about it. If I get
> told about an issue that affects accessibility, I'll attempt to
> resolve that. So, sure, keep vandalising questions if you want, keep
> following me round the web telling me I should delete questions if you
> want but I'll tell you one thing - I've been around the internet long
> enough, and I've put too much effort into making sites more
> accessible, to let one web bully stop me.
>
> Now, why were you recommending I delete my question again?
>
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> >
> >> No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess
> >> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> > On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi; first posting here.
> >> >
> >> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention by a
> >> > keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they cannot save
> >> > SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
> >> >
> >> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems, trying
> >> > different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example page:
> >> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
> >> >
> >> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes no
> >> > difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some of them
> >> > with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target, not the current
> >> > page.
> >> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able to use
> >> > the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature request", removed
> >> > the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature request" and lowered the
> >> > priority.
> >> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
> >> >
> >> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> >> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use. Any
> >> > difference is a problem; any difference which depends arbitrarily on
> >> > where in a list of words it is a bug.
> >> >
> >> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to give
> >> > it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> >> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> >> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail account.
> >> >
> >> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> >> >
> >>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attributes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> >> > and
> >>
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-repair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
> >> >
> >> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer or
> >> > carry any weight in the accessible browser development community, your
> >> > input is greatly appreciated!
> >> >
> >> > Thanks again.
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 1:43PM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | Next message →

Sadly no this is just an another example of google not following normal
standards. Shift f10 does nothing in chrome its ctrl that opens
context menu.
There's a part of me that says so no one ever said shift f10 does this and
alt does that so it's not a standard but over time we near learn these
things and they become habit then google comes in and throws a monkey
wrench in the mix and we are all lost again

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of James Nurthen
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 12:35 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard
users. Your input is needed.

I can't even open the context menu using the keyboard on Chrome. Shift+F10
appears to do nothing.

I guess this is another bug.


On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 18 April 2014 16:38, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question as well.
>
> "As well" as what? Andhy would I want to do that?
>
> > I attempted to edit your question since saving a link is not a
> > mission critical failure as you mentioned there.
>
> OK, seeing as you didn't respond to my points on Stackoverflow, I
> don't wish to turn this into a flame war, so perhaps the Webaim
> community can guide me as to whether my points are reasonable.
>
> My SO question made it clear it was a question relating to
> accessibility for users relying on keyboard-shortcuts solely affecting
> browsers built round the blink rendering engine, ie: Google Chrome.
>
> So your first action was to remove the following tags I had added.
> Here they are with their SO descriptions.
>
> *blink* "Blink is an open source rendering engine forked from WebKit.
> It is included in Google Chrome 28+ and Opera 14+." -
> - I made it clear in the first sentence that my issue is only with
> these browsers.
>
> *Accessibility* "The practice of making software which functions
> smoothly for users with a variety of disabilities, including
> blindness, deafness, and paralysis among others."
> - I explained clearly this was an issue affecting users who rely on
> the keyboard. I even mentioned blind users specifically.
>
> *keyboard-shortcuts* "Keyboard shortcuts provide quick access to
> application or system actions via combinatorial key presses".
> - I explained clearly that this issue ONLY affected users relying on
> keyboard shortcuts.
>
> So, why did you remove those three tags?
>
> You ADDED the tag "javascript" - this relates to the DOM, not
> javascript. I had already made it clear that I had tried some
> Javascript suggestions but these were not relevant.
>
> In your SO reply, you wrote:
>
> > "The part about "Save link as..." is not really relevant here".
>
> "Save link as" is ENTIRELY relevant here - the example was to
> demonstrate the problem, not to give a full use-case scenario for one
> user's particular browsing habits. Given that this makes saving files
> impossible (ie: a showstopper) IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES for users who
> rely on the "keyboard shortcuts", who are usually also "accessibility"
> technology users,
>
> And as for "not a mission critical failure", your mission is to
> imagine you rely on the keyboard, you use Chrome, and you want to
> download the first link on the page, it's a very important file.
> Given that you wouldn't able to because of what you, yourself
> described as "a bug", I'd say that was "mission failed", wouldn't you?
>
> You also wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question
>
> Here's what Stackoverflow is:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/tour
> - "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and
> enthusiast programmers".
>
> I am programming a site for visually impaired users. I asked a
> question about programming. I used tags.
>
> Incidentally, sometime in the past few hours, someone has downrated my
> question. Straight answer please: was that you?
>
> Here's what downrating is for:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down
> > "When should I vote down?
> > Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy,
> no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps
> dangerously incorrect.
> > When you vote down, you are nudging that content "down" the page, so
> > it
> will be seen by fewer people. Voting down answers is not something we
> want you to take lightly, so it is not free.
> > The up-vote privilege comes first because that's what you should
> > focus
> on: pushing great content to the top. Down-voting should be reserved
> for extreme cases. It's not meant as a substitute for communication
> and editing."
>
> My question was the result of a month of trying to track this problem
> down, then a couple of very late nights of my own time putting
> together some test cases to narrow it down.
> I gave reproducible examples of code, I linked to a test-case page I'd
> made, I showed that I had researched before posting.
> So if that WAS you, can you please explain in what way my question was
> "an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post"?
>
> The net results of the downvote was that "it will be seen by fewer
> people" as it says above.
>
> I'll not get into a flame war with you on this list, it's not the
> right place, but you have the right of reply, of course.
> I don't know what your grudge against accessibility is, but I'll tell
> you one thing - I won't be bullied into shutting up about it. If I get
> told about an issue that affects accessibility, I'll attempt to
> resolve that. So, sure, keep vandalising questions if you want, keep
> following me round the web telling me I should delete questions if you
> want but I'll tell you one thing - I've been around the internet long
> enough, and I've put too much effort into making sites more
> accessible, to let one web bully stop me.
>
> Now, why were you recommending I delete my question again?
>
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> >
> >> No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess
> >> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> > On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi; first posting here.
> >> >
> >> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention
> >> > by a keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they
> >> > cannot save SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
> >> >
> >> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems,
> >> > trying different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this example
page:
> >> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
> >> >
> >> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes
> >> > no difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some
> >> > of them with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target,
> >> > not the current page.
> >> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able
> >> > to use the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature
> >> > request", removed the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature
> >> > request" and lowered the priority.
> >> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
> >> >
> >> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> >> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use.
> >> > Any difference is a problem; any difference which depends
> >> > arbitrarily on where in a list of words it is a bug.
> >> >
> >> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to
> >> > give it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> >> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> >> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail
account.
> >> >
> >> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> >> >
> >>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attribu
> tes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> >> > and
> >>
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-r
> epair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
> >> >
> >> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer
> >> > or carry any weight in the accessible browser development
> >> > community, your input is greatly appreciated!
> >> >
> >> > Thanks again.
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 1:47PM
Subject: Re: Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.
← Previous message | No next message

Chrome 34 on Windows does support Shift+F10 for me

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 3:43 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.

Sadly no this is just an another example of google not following normal
standards. Shift f10 does nothing in chrome its ctrl that opens context menu.
There's a part of me that says so no one ever said shift f10 does this and alt does that so it's not a standard but over time we near learn these things and they become habit then google comes in and throws a monkey wrench in the mix and we are all lost again

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of James Nurthen
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 12:35 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Google Chrome blocks accessibility for keyboard users. Your input is needed.

I can't even open the context menu using the keyboard on Chrome. Shift+F10 appears to do nothing.

I guess this is another bug.


On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 18 April 2014 16:38, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question as well.
>
> "As well" as what? Andhy would I want to do that?
>
> > I attempted to edit your question since saving a link is not a
> > mission critical failure as you mentioned there.
>
> OK, seeing as you didn't respond to my points on Stackoverflow, I
> don't wish to turn this into a flame war, so perhaps the Webaim
> community can guide me as to whether my points are reasonable.
>
> My SO question made it clear it was a question relating to
> accessibility for users relying on keyboard-shortcuts solely affecting
> browsers built round the blink rendering engine, ie: Google Chrome.
>
> So your first action was to remove the following tags I had added.
> Here they are with their SO descriptions.
>
> *blink* "Blink is an open source rendering engine forked from WebKit.
> It is included in Google Chrome 28+ and Opera 14+." -
> - I made it clear in the first sentence that my issue is only with
> these browsers.
>
> *Accessibility* "The practice of making software which functions
> smoothly for users with a variety of disabilities, including
> blindness, deafness, and paralysis among others."
> - I explained clearly this was an issue affecting users who rely on
> the keyboard. I even mentioned blind users specifically.
>
> *keyboard-shortcuts* "Keyboard shortcuts provide quick access to
> application or system actions via combinatorial key presses".
> - I explained clearly that this issue ONLY affected users relying on
> keyboard shortcuts.
>
> So, why did you remove those three tags?
>
> You ADDED the tag "javascript" - this relates to the DOM, not
> javascript. I had already made it clear that I had tried some
> Javascript suggestions but these were not relevant.
>
> In your SO reply, you wrote:
>
> > "The part about "Save link as..." is not really relevant here".
>
> "Save link as" is ENTIRELY relevant here - the example was to
> demonstrate the problem, not to give a full use-case scenario for one
> user's particular browsing habits. Given that this makes saving files
> impossible (ie: a showstopper) IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES for users who
> rely on the "keyboard shortcuts", who are usually also "accessibility"
> technology users,
>
> And as for "not a mission critical failure", your mission is to
> imagine you rely on the keyboard, you use Chrome, and you want to
> download the first link on the page, it's a very important file.
> Given that you wouldn't able to because of what you, yourself
> described as "a bug", I'd say that was "mission failed", wouldn't you?
>
> You also wrote:
>
> > I recommend deleting or revising your StackOverflow question
>
> Here's what Stackoverflow is:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/tour
> - "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and
> enthusiast programmers".
>
> I am programming a site for visually impaired users. I asked a
> question about programming. I used tags.
>
> Incidentally, sometime in the past few hours, someone has downrated my
> question. Straight answer please: was that you?
>
> Here's what downrating is for:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-down
> > "When should I vote down?
> > Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy,
> no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps
> dangerously incorrect.
> > When you vote down, you are nudging that content "down" the page, so
> > it
> will be seen by fewer people. Voting down answers is not something we
> want you to take lightly, so it is not free.
> > The up-vote privilege comes first because that's what you should
> > focus
> on: pushing great content to the top. Down-voting should be reserved
> for extreme cases. It's not meant as a substitute for communication
> and editing."
>
> My question was the result of a month of trying to track this problem
> down, then a couple of very late nights of my own time putting
> together some test cases to narrow it down.
> I gave reproducible examples of code, I linked to a test-case page I'd
> made, I showed that I had researched before posting.
> So if that WAS you, can you please explain in what way my question was
> "an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post"?
>
> The net results of the downvote was that "it will be seen by fewer
> people" as it says above.
>
> I'll not get into a flame war with you on this list, it's not the
> right place, but you have the right of reply, of course.
> I don't know what your grudge against accessibility is, but I'll tell
> you one thing - I won't be bullied into shutting up about it. If I get
> told about an issue that affects accessibility, I'll attempt to
> resolve that. So, sure, keep vandalising questions if you want, keep
> following me round the web telling me I should delete questions if you
> want but I'll tell you one thing - I've been around the internet long
> enough, and I've put too much effort into making sites more
> accessible, to let one web bully stop me.
>
> Now, why were you recommending I delete my question again?
>
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> >
> >> No problem, also tweeted @googleaccess
> >> https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/457069200381849600
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> > On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:51, Jonathan H < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi; first posting here.
> >> >
> >> > To cut a month-long story short, it was brought to my attention
> >> > by a keyboard-only tester of a site I'm developing, that they
> >> > cannot save SOME of the files when using Google Chrome.
> >> >
> >> > After hours of testing between browsers, operating systems,
> >> > trying different doctypes etc, I finally ended up with this
> >> > example
page:
> >> > http://goo.gl/6oyiGc
> >> >
> >> > Forget about the fact that the links are just to pages; it makes
> >> > no difference, imagine they are files. Now try and download some
> >> > of them with the keyboard. Remember, you're saving the target,
> >> > not the current page.
> >> > "Save link as", not "save as". See the problem now?!
> >> >
> >> > Unfortunately, the developers of Google Chrome think being able
> >> > to use the browser if you're a keyboard user is a "feature
> >> > request", removed the "bug" tag and changed it to "feature
> >> > request" and lowered the priority.
> >> > Even though they agree that it used to behave correctly.
> >> >
> >> > Remember, the menu key should EXACTLY emulate a right mouse click
> >> > which of course blind/keyboard only users won't generally use.
> >> > Any difference is a problem; any difference which depends
> >> > arbitrarily on where in a list of words it is a bug.
> >> >
> >> > So would people mind taking a few moments to "star" this issue to
> >> > give it some weight, and maybe add a comment?
> >> > https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=362147
> >> > You just need to be signed in with your regular Google/Gmail
account.
> >> >
> >> > It's pretty much confirmed as a bug in my threads at
> >> >
> >>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23084579/how-can-i-diff-all-attribu
> tes-and-properties-of-two-dom-elements
> >> > and
> >>
> https://forum.jquery.com/topic/can-i-use-jquery-to-export-compare-or-r
> epair-a-dom-element-giving-trouble-in-one-browser
> >> >
> >> > PS - techy bit: If you're a bit handy with the Blink DOM renderer
> >> > or carry any weight in the accessible browser development
> >> > community, your input is greatly appreciated!
> >> >
> >> > Thanks again.
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>