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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Rakesh P
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2014 11:55AM
Subject: One list item in a list
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Dear all,

I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
2 list items. Though in some cases when the possibility of increasing
the number of list items I suggest list having 2 but I never
recommended having a single item in list.
Today while I am reading some articles to write a best practice for
using HTML list I found that even a single item can be in list.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html

Can any one help me clarify this. My screen reader say list of one
items even though I have a single item.
Another question I have is for definition list.
I understand we use a definition list
where a terms should be defined such as a glosary. Does definition
list holds good if I use it for FAQs or instances where I have a list
of items having a heading as <dt> and a paragraph of content under it
as <dd>.
Thanks & Regards
Rakesh

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2014 12:17PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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2014-09-19 20:55, Rakesh P wrote:

> I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
> 2 list items.

There is no such requirement in any HTML recommendation or public draft.

> Today while I am reading some articles to write a best practice for
> using HTML list I found that even a single item can be in list.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html

The cited HTML 4.01 specification requires that at least one item be
present. HTML5 drafts remove even this restriction, probably mainly in
order to formally allow a simple element like <ul></ul> initially, to be
filled with items with client-side scripting.

> Can any one help me clarify this. My screen reader say list of one
> items even though I have a single item.

That sounds reasonable. Technically it should say "a list with one
item", but this is not a big issue.

Even though <ul><li></ul> is valid in HTML 4.01 and even <ul></ul> is
valid in HTML5, they don't make sense as such. But accessibility
recommendations do not deal with such issues; perhaps they should. The
main problem, or risk, is cognitive. Depending on the way a zero-item
list or a one-item list is rendered, it might confuse the user who
expects a real list.

I don't see an issue with a two-item list. It's somewhat marginal, but
sometimes a useful construct when you wish to clearly indicate two items
as separate alternative or consecutive items.

> Another question I have is for definition list.
> I understand we use a definition list
> where a terms should be defined such as a glosary.

That's possible, but not a necessity. And there is really no special
advantage in doing so.

> Does definition
> list holds good if I use it for FAQs or instances where I have a list
> of items having a heading as <dt> and a paragraph of content under it
> as <dd>.

The definition (no pun intended) of <dl> has always been vague,
fluctuating between "list of defined terms and their definitions" and
"list of name/value pairs". In practice, the loose definition has won.
So yes, you can use it for Questions and Answers, even though a question
is most definitely not a term and an answer is not a definition of a
term (except by accident).

I don't think there is any particular accessibility issue involved.
There would be if some user agents really took <dl> for a list of
definitions of terms and did something special based on this. But this
does not happen. In practice, <dl> is just a formatting tool.

Yucca

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2014 12:20PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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Rakesh wrote:

> I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
> 2 list items.

My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
still a shopping list.

I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
(and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
there's nothing that prohibits this.

> Does definition
> list holds good if I use it for FAQs or instances where I have a list
> of items having a heading as <dt> and a paragraph of content under it
> as <dd>.

In HTML5, <dl> has been (re)defined as being for name/value pairs.
This more closely matches the reality of its usage on the web. So yes,
you can use <dl> to mark up FAQs or other types of name/value pairings
even if they are not strict definitions.

Jared

From: Mallory van Achterberg
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2014 1:53PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:20:25PM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> Rakesh wrote:
>
> > I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
> > 2 list items.
>
> My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
> way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
> still a shopping list.
>
> I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
> there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
> users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
> (and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
> there's nothing that prohibits this.

I have lists on our e-commerce platforms where there may only be one
item available until a user logs in. Since it's a list of things users
can do regarding a product, they do belong in the same list, but some
options only make sense for users who are also logged in.

_mallory

From: Hans Hillen
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2014 4:56PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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A one-item list or even a no-item lists conveys to the user that this is a
structure capable of containing a group of items. It lets the user know
that at any other time there may be more items there and the content is
enumerabe. Like Jared said: if you have a list, say a to-do list, and you
check off items until you get to the last item, that doesn't mean it stops
becoming a list.

On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Mallory van Achterberg <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:20:25PM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> > Rakesh wrote:
> >
> > > I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
> > > 2 list items.
> >
> > My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
> > way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
> > still a shopping list.
> >
> > I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
> > there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
> > users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
> > (and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
> > there's nothing that prohibits this.
>
> I have lists on our e-commerce platforms where there may only be one
> item available until a user logs in. Since it's a list of things users
> can do regarding a product, they do belong in the same list, but some
> options only make sense for users who are also logged in.
>
> _mallory
> > > >

From: Rakesh P
Date: Tue, Sep 23 2014 12:38PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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Thanks all for your inputs. I have published the article on my blog at
http://www.maxability.co.in/2014/09/html-lists-accessibility/

Thanks & Regards
Rakesh
On 9/20/14, Hans Hillen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> A one-item list or even a no-item lists conveys to the user that this is a
> structure capable of containing a group of items. It lets the user know
> that at any other time there may be more items there and the content is
> enumerabe. Like Jared said: if you have a list, say a to-do list, and you
> check off items until you get to the last item, that doesn't mean it stops
> becoming a list.
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Mallory van Achterberg <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:20:25PM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
>> > Rakesh wrote:
>> >
>> > > I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more than
>> > > 2 list items.
>> >
>> > My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
>> > way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
>> > still a shopping list.
>> >
>> > I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
>> > there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
>> > users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
>> > (and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
>> > there's nothing that prohibits this.
>>
>> I have lists on our e-commerce platforms where there may only be one
>> item available until a user logs in. Since it's a list of things users
>> can do regarding a product, they do belong in the same list, but some
>> options only make sense for users who are also logged in.
>>
>> _mallory
>> >> >> >>
> > > >

From: John Hicks
Date: Wed, Sep 24 2014 6:25AM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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... bringing up the rear of the conversation...

One of the things you see a lot on poorly made corporate websites is the
list made up of one item lists.

This is covered in your blog under the "Do not use HTML list for styles
such as indenting"


In these cases the collection of lists really needs to be a list, but
screen readers will only see 5 lists (say), each of one element. Crazy





2014-09-23 20:38 GMT+02:00 Rakesh P < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Thanks all for your inputs. I have published the article on my blog at
> http://www.maxability.co.in/2014/09/html-lists-accessibility/
>
> Thanks & Regards
> Rakesh
> On 9/20/14, Hans Hillen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > A one-item list or even a no-item lists conveys to the user that this is
> a
> > structure capable of containing a group of items. It lets the user know
> > that at any other time there may be more items there and the content is
> > enumerabe. Like Jared said: if you have a list, say a to-do list, and
> you
> > check off items until you get to the last item, that doesn't mean it
> stops
> > becoming a list.
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Mallory van Achterberg <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:20:25PM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> >> > Rakesh wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more
> than
> >> > > 2 list items.
> >> >
> >> > My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
> >> > way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
> >> > still a shopping list.
> >> >
> >> > I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
> >> > there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
> >> > users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
> >> > (and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
> >> > there's nothing that prohibits this.
> >>
> >> I have lists on our e-commerce platforms where there may only be one
> >> item available until a user logs in. Since it's a list of things users
> >> can do regarding a product, they do belong in the same list, but some
> >> options only make sense for users who are also logged in.
> >>
> >> _mallory
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Wed, Sep 24 2014 1:07PM
Subject: Re: One list item in a list
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Many sites are dynamic and the original designers or developers have
no control over whether a list is 0 or more.

A content person, which adds content to the list items, may or may not
know what a list item is or that screen readers exist let alone how it
reads content. They update content via an Admin Control Panel and
depending on the quality of the Rich Text Editor, will depend on the
continued quality of the code. As sites get older, the HTML often
degrades.

Nancy

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:25 AM, John Hicks < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> ... bringing up the rear of the conversation...
>
> One of the things you see a lot on poorly made corporate websites is the
> list made up of one item lists.
>
> This is covered in your blog under the "Do not use HTML list for styles
> such as indenting"
>
>
> In these cases the collection of lists really needs to be a list, but
> screen readers will only see 5 lists (say), each of one element. Crazy
>
>
>
>
>
> 2014-09-23 20:38 GMT+02:00 Rakesh P < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>
>> Thanks all for your inputs. I have published the article on my blog at
>> http://www.maxability.co.in/2014/09/html-lists-accessibility/
>>
>> Thanks & Regards
>> Rakesh
>> On 9/20/14, Hans Hillen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > A one-item list or even a no-item lists conveys to the user that this is
>> a
>> > structure capable of containing a group of items. It lets the user know
>> > that at any other time there may be more items there and the content is
>> > enumerabe. Like Jared said: if you have a list, say a to-do list, and
>> you
>> > check off items until you get to the last item, that doesn't mean it
>> stops
>> > becoming a list.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Mallory van Achterberg <
>> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:20:25PM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
>> >> > Rakesh wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > I was so far of the thought that a HTML list should contain more
>> than
>> >> > > 2 list items.
>> >> >
>> >> > My wife and I share a shopping list and I pick up the groceries on the
>> >> > way home from work. It currently has one item - lettuce. Yet it's
>> >> > still a shopping list.
>> >> >
>> >> > I admit it is a bit atypical for a list to only have one item - and
>> >> > there is overhead that should be considered for developers, sighted
>> >> > users, and screen reader users when encountering a list with one item
>> >> > (and for me when stopping at the grocer for only lettuce) - but
>> >> > there's nothing that prohibits this.
>> >>
>> >> I have lists on our e-commerce platforms where there may only be one
>> >> item available until a user logs in. Since it's a list of things users
>> >> can do regarding a product, they do belong in the same list, but some
>> >> options only make sense for users who are also logged in.
>> >>
>> >> _mallory
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >>
> > >