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Thread: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)
From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 6:17AM
Subject: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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Hi Listers,
I have read about breadcrumbs on the WebAIM site. Is there specific html coding to cause the computer to keep track of how the person got where he is? If so, what is it? Now I am also wondering what the coding is to make it accessible. It looks like it needs to be off the screen. Any help would be appreciated. I am testing and doing some coding here at USDA.
Susie Stanzel
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 6:30AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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Hi Susie,
The W3C HTML5 Recommendation provides advice on marking up breadcrumbs
http://www.w3.org/TR/html/common-idioms.html#rel-up
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 16 December 2014 at 13:17, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I have read about breadcrumbs on the WebAIM site. Is there specific html
> coding to cause the computer to keep track of how the person got where he
> is? If so, what is it? Now I am also wondering what the coding is to make
> it accessible. It looks like it needs to be off the screen. Any help would
> be appreciated. I am testing and doing some coding here at USDA.
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely
> for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message
> or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law
> and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you
> have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete
> the email immediately.
> > > >
From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 6:42AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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Hi Steve,
My problem is they are still in html4 around here. However, I am going to read about html5.
Susie
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] coding for breadcrumbs in html4
Hi Susie,
The W3C HTML5 Recommendation provides advice on marking up breadcrumbs http://www.w3.org/TR/html/common-idioms.html#rel-up
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 16 December 2014 at 13:17, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I have read about breadcrumbs on the WebAIM site. Is there specific
> html coding to cause the computer to keep track of how the person got
> where he is? If so, what is it? Now I am also wondering what the
> coding is to make it accessible. It looks like it needs to be off the
> screen. Any help would be appreciated. I am testing and doing some coding here at USDA.
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA
> solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of
> this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains
> may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal
> penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error,
> please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
From: Karl Groves
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 7:36AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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Susie,
Other than the use of the <nav> element, the reference Steve shared is relevant.
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> My problem is they are still in html4 around here. However, I am going to read about html5.
>
> Susie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:31 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] coding for breadcrumbs in html4
>
> Hi Susie,
> The W3C HTML5 Recommendation provides advice on marking up breadcrumbs http://www.w3.org/TR/html/common-idioms.html#rel-up
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
>
> On 16 December 2014 at 13:17, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Listers,
>>
>> I have read about breadcrumbs on the WebAIM site. Is there specific
>> html coding to cause the computer to keep track of how the person got
>> where he is? If so, what is it? Now I am also wondering what the
>> coding is to make it accessible. It looks like it needs to be off the
>> screen. Any help would be appreciated. I am testing and doing some coding here at USDA.
>>
>> Susie Stanzel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA
>> solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of
>> this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains
>> may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal
>> penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error,
>> please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > > > --
Karl Groves
www.karlgroves.com
@karlgroves
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
Phone: +1 410.541.6829
Modern Web Toolsets and Accessibility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uq6Db47-Ks
www.tenon.io
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 7:47AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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On 16 December 2014 at 13:42, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> My problem is they are still in html4 around here. However, I am going to
> read about html5.
HTML 4 was set in stone in 1999, the vast majority of the author guidance
and information about how browsers implement HTML features is outdated.
HTML5 is a super-set of HTML4, most, but not all HTML 4 elements and
attributes are conforming in HTML5.
some documents which may be useful
HTML5 Differences from HTML4 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
The Elements of HTML - lists elements conforming in HTML from HTML 2 - HTML
5.1 http://w3c.github.io/elements-of-html/
HTML5 Doctor is a good site for advice on how to use HTML5 -
http://html5doctor.com/
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 8:02AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
← Previous message | Next message →
Steve,
Thank you so much for these links. I have been looking for something like this.
Susie
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 8:48 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] coding for breadcrumbs in html4
On 16 December 2014 at 13:42, Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> My problem is they are still in html4 around here. However, I am going
> to read about html5.
HTML 4 was set in stone in 1999, the vast majority of the author guidance and information about how browsers implement HTML features is outdated.
HTML5 is a super-set of HTML4, most, but not all HTML 4 elements and attributes are conforming in HTML5.
some documents which may be useful
HTML5 Differences from HTML4 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ The Elements of HTML - lists elements conforming in HTML from HTML 2 - HTML
5.1 http://w3c.github.io/elements-of-html/
HTML5 Doctor is a good site for advice on how to use HTML5 - http://html5doctor.com/
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 8:18AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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On 16/12/2014 14:36, Karl Groves wrote:
> Susie,
>
> Other than the use of the <nav> element, the reference Steve shared is relevant.
And dirty secret: <nav> will "work" (i.e. be recognised as a block-level
element, with appropriate role correctly exposed) in modern browsers,
regardless of what the <!DOCTYPE ...> of the page is...
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 10:08AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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2014-12-16, 17:18, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> And dirty secret: <nav> will "work" (i.e. be recognised as a block-level
> element, with appropriate role correctly exposed) in modern browsers,
> regardless of what the <!DOCTYPE ...> of the page is...
More secrets: It hardly ever matters, since the content of <nav> is
normally block elements anyway but admittedly there may be specialized
software, like speech browsers, that actually utilize the idea of <nav>
and e.g. let the user skip navigation even when the page has no
constructs for that.
Additional secret: If you assign styles to <nav>, things are different.
Old versions of IE ignore such settings, and you need something like
document.createElement('nav') in JavaScript to handle that.
Bottom line: <nav> is useless for most practical purposes. It is
harmless unless you rely on it. If you want to have some styling for the
<nav> element, either use the JavaScript trick or set the style on a
<div> element wrapped in or wrapping the <nav> element.
Yucca
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 10:21AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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2014-12-16, 16:47, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> HTML 4 was set in stone in 1999,
Technically in 1997, as HTML 4.0 Recommendation. The HTML 4.01
specification, really a minor update, was approved in 1999.
> the vast majority of the author guidance
> and information about how browsers implement HTML features is outdated.
I think you misspelled some of. (Mostly parts that people didnt read,
or didnt understand.)
> HTML5 is a super-set of HTML4,
No, it is not.
> most, but not all HTML 4 elements and
> attributes are conforming in HTML5.
I think you misspelled some. We could say that most, but far from all,
HTML 4.01 Strict elements and attributes are conforming in HTML5. HTML 4
contains a large number of constructs that are declared as deprecated,
and most, but not all, of them are declared as obsolete in HTML5. In
addition, HTML5 obsoletes some constructs that were not deprecated in
HTML 4 and also changes the definitions of meanings of elements.
> some documents which may be useful
>
> HTML5 Differences from HTML4 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
It shows some, and probably most, of the differences, which are quite a
few. It (probably intentionally) avoids describing some tricky parts,
like what happened to <em>? and what is <p>, really? I dont think
such issues are relevant to accessibility, but they are relevant if you
claim that HTML5 is a superset of HTML 4.
Yucca
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 11:01AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
← Previous message | Next message →
hi Yucca,
Always appreciate you input on any subject
I can always rely upon you for nitpicking and hair splitting ;-)
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
On 16 December 2014 at 17:21, Jukka K. Korpela < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> 2014-12-16, 16:47, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
> HTML 4 was set in stone in 1999,
>>
>
> Technically in 1997, as HTML 4.0 Recommendation. The HTML 4.01
> specification, really a minor update, was approved in 1999.
>
> the vast majority of the author guidance
>> and information about how browsers implement HTML features is outdated.
>>
>
> I think you misspelled "some of". (Mostly parts that people didn't read,
> or didn't understand.)
>
> HTML5 is a super-set of HTML4,
>>
>
> No, it is not.
>
> most, but not all HTML 4 elements and
>> attributes are conforming in HTML5.
>>
>
> I think you misspelled "some". We could say that most, but far from all,
> HTML 4.01 Strict elements and attributes are conforming in HTML5. HTML 4
> contains a large number of constructs that are declared as "deprecated",
> and most, but not all, of them are declared as "obsolete" in HTML5. In
> addition, HTML5 obsoletes some constructs that were not deprecated in HTML
> 4 and also changes the definitions of meanings of elements.
>
> some documents which may be useful
>>
>> HTML5 Differences from HTML4 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
>>
>
> It shows some, and probably most, of the differences, which are quite a
> few. It (probably intentionally) avoids describing some tricky parts, like
> "what happened to <em>?" and "what is <p>, really?" I don't think such
> issues are relevant to accessibility, but they are relevant if you claim
> that HTML5 is a superset of HTML 4.
>
> Yucca
>
>
> > > >
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 11:13AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
← Previous message | Next message →
On 16 December 2014 at 17:08, Jukka K. Korpela < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Bottom line: <nav> is useless for most practical purposes.
<nav> is useful for a practical purpose, it is exposed as a navigation
landmark in most browsers and is presented as part of the interactive aural
UI to screen reader users. (i.e. its announced to users and users can
navigate to it using the keyboard)
related info about ARIA landmarks (which HTML5 nav/header/footer/aside/main
elements are mapped to in browsers)
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/02/using-wai-aria-landmarks-2013/
accessibility layer implementation of HTML elements in browsers
http://stevefaulkner.github.io/html-mapping-tests/
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
From: Mallory van Achterberg
Date: Tue, Dec 16 2014 12:27PM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 06:01:41PM +0000, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> hi Yucca,
>
> Always appreciate you input on any subject
> I can always rely upon you for nitpicking and hair splitting ;-)
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
Exactly what one needs when dealing with nitpicks of standards and
other things where the definition of "inhaled" and "is" somehow
sometimes actually matter.
We did not have relations... with that doctype.
_m
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2014 3:13AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
← Previous message | Next message →
2014-12-16, 20:13, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> On 16 December 2014 at 17:08, Jukka K. Korpela < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Bottom line: <nav> is useless for most practical purposes.
>
> <nav> is useful for a practical purpose, it is exposed as a navigation
> landmark in most browsers and is presented as part of the interactive aural
> UI to screen reader users. (i.e. its announced to users and users can
> navigate to it using the keyboard)
This may be relevant in the long run and even now to a small fraction of
users, but it is just exposed information that browsers and assistive
software *may* using.
As far as I can see, the exposed information is just the ARIA attribute
role=navigation. Thus the same can be achieved (better) by using <div
role=navigation>...</div> instead of <nav>...</nav>, right?
Yucca
From: Mallory van Achterberg
Date: Wed, Dec 17 2014 3:50AM
Subject: Re: coding for breadcrumbs in html4
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On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:13:16PM +0200, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> As far as I can see, the exposed information is just the ARIA
> attribute role=navigation. Thus the same can be achieved (better) by
> using <div role=navigation>...</div> instead of <nav>...</nav>,
> right?
Yeah, but the "type a bit fewer characters and get something for
free" is a Thing, at least in the West. Larry Wall did say laziness
was a virtue. Automatic roles? Word, yo! Even though just today I
saw actual, live developers in the wild making
<a href="javascript:void()" role="link">some link</a>
so maybe Laziness needs to be a bit more promoted.
Actually, I'm not sure of the "(better)" part, unless you mean IE<9
issues, in which case it's not Lazier to use nav, but more work, which
we all want to avoid. But for those Lucky Ones, nav is the true way
to the 8-Fold-Path, right?
_mallory