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Thread: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: Joan Preston
Date: Fri, Jun 09 2017 3:41PM
Subject: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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Hi,
We are implementing a new chat feature. When the button is selected to start the chat, the screen reader announces its opening in a new window. The new window does have an address bar with the top level buttons, but within the content itself there is no Close button. However, the window can be closed by Ctrl+ W in IE 11. Would this be considered an accessible option? My concern is keyboard-only users and screen reader users may not know about Ctrl+ W and get trapped within the window. What does the community think?
Thanks,
Joan Preston
Web Accessibility Coordinator
ITS - California State University, Long Beach
From: JP Jamous
Date: Fri, Jun 09 2017 4:33PM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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You just answered your own question. So many people don't know about this shortcut. This is a browser shortcut and you cannot expect the user to know it.
You have to provide a close button.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Joan Preston
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 4:42 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
Hi,
We are implementing a new chat feature. When the button is selected to start the chat, the screen reader announces its opening in a new window. The new window does have an address bar with the top level buttons, but within the content itself there is no Close button. However, the window can be closed by Ctrl+ W in IE 11. Would this be considered an accessible option? My concern is keyboard-only users and screen reader users may not know about Ctrl+ W and get trapped within the window. What does the community think?
Thanks,
Joan Preston
Web Accessibility Coordinator
ITS - California State University, Long Beach
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Sat, Jun 10 2017 2:35AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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On 09/06/2017 23:33, JP Jamous wrote:
> You just answered your own question. So many people don't know about this shortcut. This is a browser shortcut and you cannot expect the user to know it.
>
> You have to provide a close button.
I disagree. You can also close the window (in Windows) using ALT+F4 -
the standard "close this" shortcut. Users can also still ALT+TAB out of
the window, etc. In short, all regular keyboard commands to
navigate/operate a windowed environment still work. I'd posit that users
that don't know these commands will have a tough time in general
navigating/using a windowed environment.
Now, would it be nice to provide an explicit close button? Possibly. Do
you HAVE to provide a close button? I'd argue that no, you don't.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Sat, Jun 10 2017 9:51AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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Not sure on this one, did he really mean close window, or close a frame that behave a little like a window. If memory serves me correctly, in X/11 environments control-W closes a window, in MacOS command-W closes a window and in Windows alt-F4 closes a window. Now, some browsers also have enabled the control-W command so that it behaves the same no matter which OS you are running the browser on. So if the control-W command spoken about in the original query is closing a frame/sub-window and not the tab/window controlling the box you have the additional issue that you are somewhat overriding an application and/or OS keyboard shortcut which might be "OK", but would need suitable testing to ensure the original functionality still works when the chat area is closed.
Also, it seems that the Google Application suite uses the escape key for this type of functionality so it might be more intuitive to use that key.
In any case, just like one should not expect all users to see the screen, one cannot expect all users to be able to type a two-button combination especially on mobile touch devices.
I had a particular dislike for a site that after 20 seconds of apparent non-activity popped up a chat window with a live region that spoke HI this is Cindy it looks like you are having trouble finding something. Can I help? and then moved my focus to the chat input area.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> On 09/06/2017 23:33, JP Jamous wrote:
>> You just answered your own question. So many people don't know about this shortcut. This is a browser shortcut and you cannot expect the user to know it.
>> You have to provide a close button.
>
> I disagree. You can also close the window (in Windows) using ALT+F4 - the standard "cl ose this" shortcut. Users can also still ALT+TAB out of the window, etc. In short, all regular keyboard commands to navigate/operate a windowed environment still work. I'd posit that users that don't know these commands will have a tough time in general navigating/using a windowed environment.
>
> Now, would it be nice to provide an explicit close button? Possibly. Do you HAVE to provide a close button? I'd argue that no, you don't.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > >
From: Swift, Daniel P.
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2017 6:20AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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" In any case, just like one should not expect all users to see the screen, one cannot expect all users to be able to type a two-button combination..."
I 100% agree here ... there are so many users that don't even know the shortcuts for copy and paste let alone shortcuts that are arguably more advanced. I think that not providing a close button could be construed as a major accessibility or at least a usability issue. Besides, at the end of the day, how difficult is it to add a little 'x' in the corner to close the window which is something that users have grown accustomed to since the birth of the modern OS.
Just my two cents :-D
Dan Swift
Senior Web Specialist
Enterprise Services
West Chester University
610.738.0589
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Cohn
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2017 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
Not sure on this one, did he really mean close window, or close a frame that behave a little like a window. If memory serves me correctly, in X/11 environments control-W closes a window, in MacOS command-W closes a window and in Windows alt-F4 closes a window. Now, some browsers also have enabled the control-W command so that it behaves the same no matter which OS you are running the browser on. So if the control-W command spoken about in the original query is closing a frame/sub-window and not the tab/window controlling the box you have the additional issue that you are somewhat overriding an application and/or OS keyboard shortcut which might be "OK", but would need suitable testing to ensure the original functionality still works when the chat area is closed.
Also, it seems that the Google Application suite uses the escape key for this type of functionality so it might be more intuitive to use that key.
In any case, just like one should not expect all users to see the screen, one cannot expect all users to be able to type a two-button combination especially on mobile touch devices.
I had a particular dislike for a site that after 20 seconds of apparent non-activity popped up a chat window with a live region that spoke HI this is Cindy it looks like you are having trouble finding something. Can I help? and then moved my focus to the chat input area.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Jun 10, 2017, at 4:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> On 09/06/2017 23:33, JP Jamous wrote:
>> You just answered your own question. So many people don't know about this shortcut. This is a browser shortcut and you cannot expect the user to know it.
>> You have to provide a close button.
>
> I disagree. You can also close the window (in Windows) using ALT+F4 - the standard "cl ose this" shortcut. Users can also still ALT+TAB out of the window, etc. In short, all regular keyboard commands to navigate/operate a windowed environment still work. I'd posit that users that don't know these commands will have a tough time in general navigating/using a windowed environment.
>
> Now, would it be nice to provide an explicit close button? Possibly. Do you HAVE to provide a close button? I'd argue that no, you don't.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2017 6:24AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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On 12/06/2017 13:20, Swift, Daniel P. wrote:
> I 100% agree here ... there are so many users that don't even know the shortcuts for copy and paste let alone shortcuts that are arguably more advanced.
So, do we need to provide copy and paste buttons in our pages now as
well? ;)
> Besides, at the end of the day, how difficult is it to add a little 'x' in the corner to close the window which is something that users have grown accustomed to since the birth of the modern OS.
It's not difficult, just that the window itself already has a "X"
control to close it as part of the actual window chrome itself (even a
window without address bar has standard minimize/close/etc controls). So
now you have two close controls.
In any case, if a developer wants to do it, more power to them. But
let's be careful making absolute statements.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: Joan Preston
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2017 9:12AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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Thank you all for your thoughts on this topic and I will take them into account when talking to the site that is adding the chat. It is however a third party app, so asking for them to add a close button may take longer than the go live date. Not sure why, seems easy to add to me.
Thanks,
Joan Preston
Web Accessibility Coordinator
ITS - California State University, Long Beach
From: Jeremy Echols
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2017 9:57AM
Subject: Re: Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
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I think Patrick's got a valid point here. If we're talking about an actual browser window (and not something like a modal that's actually HTML markup), the user should know how to close it. Otherwise how would they ever close any browser window or tab? I think whether they're using File -> Quit, or CTRL+W, or whatever else, they have to know how to close a browser window in order to be on the web to begin with.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Joan Preston
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 8:13 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Ctrl+ W ok as sole source close
Thank you all for your thoughts on this topic and I will take them into account when talking to the site that is adding the chat. It is however a third party app, so asking for them to add a close button may take longer than the go live date. Not sure why, seems easy to add to me.
Thanks,
Joan Preston
Web Accessibility Coordinator
ITS - California State University, Long Beach