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Re: Trying to find middle ground with a developer

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From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Aug 8, 2017 9:16PM

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    Sarah,

    Interesting about Macintosh only I didn't get that feeling when I was visiting Brandeis. In any case, Macintoshes VoiceOver has a idea of interacting and stop interacting that can be "interesting". It sounds like the menu might be considered a grouping by VoiceOver that one would need to interact with to read the individual items. You might be able to have a aria-label for the group, I have noticed some things like this on my sites but currently supporting VoiceOver is lower on my priorities so I have not tried to see how to control this.
    I believe role=group or role=section causes VoiceOver to group items. Certainly one place you can see grouping in actin is on the FaceBook page where each posting is in its own article. I believe the BETA versions of Safari handle articles differently when working with VoiceOver.

    Shalom,

    Jonathan Cohn
    Best wishes,

    Jonathan Cohn



    > On Aug 8, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Sarah Ferguson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
    >
    > Thanks Ben. I did get code for ESC. All of our students use MAC, so it's
    > important that it works in VO, but I will see how it works in JAWS anyway.
    > Thanks
    >
    > Sarah Ferguson
    > Web Accessibility Specialist
    > Department of Digital Communications
    > Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
    > www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
    >
    >
    > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
    >
    >> Just Google something like ... javascript esc close menu ... and you'll
    >> see some examples on Stack Overflow - it depends on how the menu is set up
    >> but it should hopefully be easy to implement.
    >>
    >> The HTML looks ok. I tried it using NVDA on various browsers in Windows
    >> and it's working properly i.e. it reads out the alt text once, then the
    >> caption once. You mentioned VoiceOver below - have you tried other screen
    >> readers / browsers / operating systems - it may be a particular combination.
    >>
    >> Ben
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
    >> Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
    >> Sent: 08 August 2017 17:11
    >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
    >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
    >>
    >> I did check the menu with ESC and it did not close. (Ben or anyone else)
    >> Do you happen to know what she needs to do to make that happen?
    >>
    >> Sarah Ferguson
    >> Web Accessibility Specialist
    >> Department of Digital Communications
    >> Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
    >> www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
    >>
    >>
    >> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Sarah Ferguson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi Ben,
    >>>
    >>> I can't promise she wasn't in the middle of working on this when I
    >>> captured it, but here:
    >>>
    >>> <div class="captioned-image-wrap">
    >>> <figure class="captioned-image left">
    >>>
    >>> <img alt="Students in hallway of Schneider Building"
    >>> src="../../images/upperfordiversitypage.jpg" width="479"/>
    >>> <figcaption>
    >>> <a
    >>> href="../../nrcpd/index.html">
    >>> Students at Heller are
    >>> conversing in the hallway
    >>> </a>
    >>> </figcaption>
    >>> </figure>
    >>>
    >>> Sarah Ferguson
    >>> Web Accessibility Specialist
    >>> Department of Digital Communications
    >>> Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259 <(781)%20736-4259>
    >>> www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Hi Sarah
    >>>>
    >>>> The double alt reading just seems wrong then - can you copy the bit
    >>>> of HTML she's used for the figure and image?
    >>>>
    >>>> Kind regards
    >>>>
    >>>> Ben
    >>>>
    >>>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
    >>>> Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
    >>>> Sent: 08 August 2017 16:49
    >>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
    >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
    >>>>
    >>>> Hi Ben,
    >>>>
    >>>> She said that the site that reads better (in my opinion) throws HTML
    >>>> code flags. That site is still in development, as well. While she
    >>>> isn't willing to use that code as a solution, she is at least willing
    >>>> to keep tinkering, so at least there is that.
    >>>>
    >>>> I haven't tried the escape key, I will see if that has an effect.
    >> thanks.
    >>>>
    >>>> Regarding the caption, no the caption can be different. The alt text
    >>>> reads as a description of the whole (called figure), then again (same
    >>>> alt
    >>>> text) for the image. Then the caption will read.
    >>>>
    >>>> Sarah
    >>>>
    >>>> Sarah Ferguson
    >>>> Web Accessibility Specialist
    >>>> Department of Digital Communications
    >>>> Brandeis University *|* 781.736.4259
    >>>> www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hi Sarah
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I'm not a fan of big menus for any site and it sounds like it's far
    >>>>> too difficult to navigate. You said about another of your sites
    >>>>> reading the correct number of items and that "She says that the
    >>>>> code in that site is incorrect, so she won't follow it." - can you
    >>>>> let me know what the address of that site is - it would be
    >>>>> interesting to know what she thought was wrong with it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> According to http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#menu the
    >>>>> Escape key should allow you to exit the menu - at least that way
    >>>>> the user wouldn't need to navigate back out again.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> With the image issue - are you saying that you can't enter separate
    >>>>> text for the caption? So the caption will just use whatever is set
    >>>>> for
    >>>> alt text?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Kind regards
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Ben
    >>>>>
    >>>>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
    >>>>> Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
    >>>>> Sent: 08 August 2017 15:51
    >>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
    >>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Sorry, Ben. It's not live and is on a secured server.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Sarah Ferguson
    >>>>> Web Accessibility Specialist
    >>>>> Department of Digital Communications Brandeis University *|*
    >>>>> 781.736.4259 www.brandeis.edu/web-accessibility
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 7:32 AM, Ben Regis < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
    >> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Hi Sarah
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Is it possible to see the website?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Kind regards
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Ben
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
    >>>>>> On Behalf Of Sarah Ferguson
    >>>>>> Sent: 07 August 2017 20:44
    >>>>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
    >>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Trying to find middle ground with a developer
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Hi all,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> We have an outside developer working on one of our sites. I've
    >>>>>> done a review of the site and she's done a few rounds of fixes.
    >>>>>> We have a couple of sticking points.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> **Hamburger menu**
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The desktop site has a hamburger menu. VoiceOver is reading the
    >>>>>> menu as "*Navigation
    >>>>>> 3 items*." The open menu actually has 3 columns with 28 items total.
    >>>>>> You cannot currently navigate column to column, nor are the
    >>>>>> columns ever differentiated by Voiceover. It's read as one long
    >>>>>> list. To me, the user hears 3 items and expects 3 items. Getting
    >>>>>> 28 items at this point is confusing. Furthermore, I feel that
    >>>>>> someone having to backup through 28 items to close a menu with
    >>>>>> the toggle that opened it, is
    >>>>> asking a lot.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I would be happy if it either announced 28 items and there was a
    >>>>>> way to close the menu without backing all the way up, or if the
    >>>>>> user could navigate column to column and drill into each column
    >>>>>> (at which point I feel VO should also read the correct number of
    >>>>>> items in each
    >>>> column).
    >>>>>> I've given her another of our sites that reads the actual number
    >>>>>> of items. It is also much shorter than 28 items, so closing the
    >>>>>> menu is less of an issue. She says that the code in that site is
    >>>>>> incorrect, so
    >>>>> she won't follow it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The main navigation has a similar issue. It is reading as 1 item
    >>>>>> (being 1 list with several items).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> *Do you think it is ok to have the navigation menus read the
    >>>>>> number of lists instead of the number of items? Any ideas for
    >>>>>> alternate solutions or examples of sites you feel handle
    >>>>>> hamburger menu very
    >>>>>> well?*
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ****
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> **Image and caption**
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> The second issue is the way she coded images with captions. Right
    >>>>>> now, she has coded the image and caption as a figure in HTML5.
    >>>>>> This is causing the "figure" (the image and caption together) to
    >>>>>> read the alt text, followed by hearing the alt text again for the
    >>>>>> image itself and then hearing the caption. I find this
    >>>>>> redundant. She argues it is better, because this tagging method
    >>>>>> identifies the caption as a caption and not just text. It links
    >>>>>> the image and caption together. I can see that point, but the
    >>>>>> redundancy still
    >>>> bothers me.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> *What are your thoughts? Do you know of any alternate solutions
    >>>>>> for making the caption and image be linked and label the caption
    >>>>>> as such, without the alt text reading twice?*
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ****
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thanks!
    >>>>>> Sarah
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Sarah
    >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>>>> >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>>>> >>>>>>
    >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>>> >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>>> >>>>>
    >>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>> >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >>>> >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
    >> >>
    >>
    >> >> >> >> >>
    > > > >