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Re: FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

From: liza.zamboglou
Date: Jul 22, 2004 8:52AM

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FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.



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Hi Mark, could you possibly send me a MS
Word version of that article?

Many Thanks

Liza



-----Original Message-----
From: mstimson
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: 22 July 2004 15:39
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: [WebAIM] FW: WebAIM
Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.



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Gary,

I've also searched for an answer to that question a
couple of years ago, and never came up with any decent data or
references. Perhaps there have been some attempts to obtain demographic
data of screen reader users since then. I'm forwarding you a study I
received a couple months ago by Microsoft and Forrester Data, a private
research firm, called &quot;AT's Wide Impact - a Forrester Data &amp; Microsoft
Research Report.&quot; It's probably the closest thing I've seen to good
demographic data so far. If you do come across any other studies I would
surely be grateful if you could let me know about them.. Again, I haven't
conducted a &quot;thorough&quot; lit search in at least 2 years, so I'm sure
there's stuff out there I don't know about.

Best regards,
Mark

P.S. Gary, I'm forwarding you the article in a
separate email so that I don't bombard the WebAIM Discussion List with a large
attachment.

P.S.S. WebAIM Discussion folks, if any of you would
like me to forward you a copy of the AT Report to your personal email address,
send me a response and let me know if you prefer MS Word or Adobe PDF.



Mark Stimson, Ph.D.
Access Technology Specialist

Sensory Access Foundation

1142 West Evelyn Avenue

Sunnyvale, CA 94086

Ph: 408-245-7330, extension
32
Fax: 408-245-3762
<EMAIL REMOVED>

www.sensoryaccess.com

SAF Mission: To assist people who are blind or
visually impaired to obtain or retain competitive employment by providing the
highest quality access technology assessment, computer training, job placement
and accommodation services with a goal of achieving 100% job retention.



-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:02
AM
To: Mark Stimson
Subject: WebAIM Discussion List
Digest 22.07.2004.



WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: total number of screen
readers
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:41:46
-0600

Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for
an article about
web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or
worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for
their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the
makers of JAWS, but that figure
would not be very accurate, since there
are so many other screen readers
out there. Does anybody know where I
could find an estimate of the total
number of people who use screen
readers?

Gary

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: Flash into

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04
-0600

I would suggest having your index page be something
that has 2 links: &quot;flash&quot; and &quot;non-flash&quot;, then they click
either link they want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:00:40
-0600



I have an
interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am
working on a new web site for our organization
and am including a site
map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs that
we sponsor I have subnavigation
menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program may
include training so there is a link
to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does not
pose a problem for the pages within
the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those links
are listed within the site map
there is an issue - several links that say
&quot;training.&quot;

&amp;nbsp;
Bobby correctly
flagged this problem as a violation
of WCAG 13.1.
&amp;nbsp;
A visitor using a
screen reader who visits the site
map then uses the link list feature of their
browser will be confused by the
duplicate named links.&amp;nbsp; However, to add the
program name to all of the links
relating to that program would likely be very
annoying as well.
&amp;nbsp;
Any suggestions from
this group?
&amp;nbsp;
Thanks,
&amp;nbsp;
Mike
Moore

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42
-0600



I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link
being visible
and the program name wrapped in a
&amp;lt;span
class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp;
Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so
that doesn't work
.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;nbsp;
&amp;nbsp;
&amp;lt;a
href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training
&amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for
Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;

&amp;nbsp;
Sandra
Clark



From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PMTo: WebAIM
Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1

I have an
interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am
working on a new web site for our organization
and am including a site
map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs that
we sponsor I have subnavigation
menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program may
include training so there is a link
to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does not
pose a problem for the pages within
the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those links
are listed within the site map
there is an issue - several links that say
&quot;training.&quot;

&amp;nbsp;
Bobby correctly
flagged this problem as a violation
of WCAG 13.1.
&amp;nbsp;
A visitor using a
screen reader who visits the site
map then uses the link list feature of their
browser will be confused by the
duplicate named links.&amp;nbsp; However, to add the
program name to all of the links
relating to that program would likely be very
annoying as well.
&amp;nbsp;
Any suggestions from
this group?
&amp;nbsp;
Thanks,
&amp;nbsp;
Mike
Moore

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58
-0600

check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content

-----Original Message-----
From: &quot;sllists&quot;
<; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&quot; <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link
being visible and the program
name wrapped in a <;span
class=&quot;hidden&quot;>;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work

..hidden{
width:1px;
position:absolute;
left:0;
top:-100px;
height:1px;
overflow:hidden;
}

<;a href=&quot;&quot;>;Training
<;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;>;for Program<;/span>;<;/a>;

Sandra Clark

 _____

From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby,
and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima. I am working on a
new web site for our
organization and am including a
site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs
that we sponsor I have
subnavigation menus that are very similar. A program
may include training so there is a
link to training for example. This does
not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those
links are listed within the site
map there is an issue - several links that
say &quot;training.&quot;

Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link
list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links..
However, to add the program name to
all of the links relating to that
program would likely be very
annoying as well.

Any suggestions from this group?

Thanks,

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson
Programmer Analyst
Web Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57
-0600

I have read the article that you mentioned but I am
still concerned about
the annoyance factor of adding the
program name to the links - each section
would need to have seven or eight links
with the hidden program name. The
screen reader would read
&quot;program training&quot; &quot;program schedule&quot; &quot;program

participants&quot; etc. Then
again maybe I am just being overly cautious.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Shane [<a
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ">mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:32
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content

-----Original Message-----
From: &quot;sllists&quot;
<; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&quot; <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link
being visible and the program
name wrapped in a <;span
class=&quot;hidden&quot;>;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work
..hidden{ width:1px; position:absolute;
left:0; top:-100px; height:1px;
overflow:hidden; }

<;a href=&quot;&quot;>;Training
<;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;>;for Program<;/span>;<;/a>;

Sandra Clark

 _____

From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby,
and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima. I am working on a
new web site for our
organization and am including a
site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs
that we sponsor I have
subnavigation menus that are very similar. A program
may include training so there is a
link to training for example. This does
not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those
links are listed within the site
map there is an issue - several links that
say &quot;training.&quot;

Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link
list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links.
However, to add the program name to
all of the links relating to that
program would likely be very
annoying as well.

Any suggestions from this group?

Thanks,

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson
Programmer Analyst
Web Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <a
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: total number of screen
readers
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44
-0600

Well, why not check with your local society for the
blind? In Canada, its
the CNIB (Canadian National
Institute for the Blind) and every country is
likely to have something similar.
They may not have global figures but they
would probably have national stats.
They would know the total number of
visually impaired as well as the
number who are currently online. National
statistics bodies will probably
also have that information, although it
would probably be much more
difficult to track down.

>; From: &quot;garymm&quot; <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;

>; Reply-To: &quot;WebAIM
Discussion List&quot; <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
>; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004
13:41:07 -0700
>; To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&quot; <; <EMAIL REMOVED> >;
>; Subject: [WebAIM] total number
of screen readers
>;
>;
>; Hey. I am currently doing
research for my company for an article about
>; web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or
>; worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for
>; their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the
>; makers of JAWS, but that
figure would not be very accurate, since there
>; are so many other screen
readers out there. Does anybody know where I
>; could find an estimate of the
total number of people who use screen
>; readers?
>;
>; Gary
>;
>; ----
>; To subscribe or unsubscribe,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

>;
>;

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Skip links (in-page links)
and the keyboard
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17
-0600

I just updated a study of the problems and
possibilities of skip links at
<a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav..htm.
The important news is at the very bottom
of that page. There is a pretty
simple technique to be sure that your
in-page links work from the
keyboard. Just do it like this:

<;span style=&quot;width: 100%;&quot;>;<;a
name=&quot;main&quot; id=&quot;main&quot;>;<;/a>;<;/span>;

This technique is less of a hack than placing the
anchor in a table - a
technique used at <a
href="http://WebAIM.org">http://WebAIM.org. The two techniques have a
common
aspect. Both place the anchor in
some construct with width. That seems to be
the thing that undoes/fixes the IE6
bug.



Jim
Accessibility, What Not to do: <a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot..htm.

Web Accessibility Tutorial: <a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26
-0600



Don't
take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying
style such as a series of nested
divs whose role is only to apply different
backgrounds to the same content.
For example, the Onion Skinning technique
recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the
same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with
you&amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;nbsp;Why
not simply use the Title attribute
to add more information?
&amp;nbsp;
Jules
-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial
Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960

 -----Original Message-----From: sllists
[<a
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ">mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 6:13
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the
&quot;training&quot; link being visible
and the program name wrapped
in a &amp;lt;span

class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately
Jaws honors display:none
so that doesn't work

.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;nbsp;
&amp;nbsp;
&amp;lt;a
href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span
class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for

Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39
-0600



Not taken personally :)
&amp;nbsp;
My experience with the title
attribute is that a)&amp;nbsp;I
don't feel that the use of titles
meet the WCAG guideline 13.1 &amp;nbsp;of &quot;link
text must be meaningful enough to
make sense when read out of context&quot;.&amp;nbsp; b)
not every screen reader is
configured to read titles out of the box (or many of
them&amp;nbsp;can be reconfigured
to either read or
not read titles) so I can't be sure
that it would even be read.&amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp;
I don't think the maintenance of it
is that difficult,
mainly because most of what I would
use it for is dynamically programmed
anyways. Its a technique, I've
found effective, but if someone comes
up with a better way that will meet
standards and work, then I'd love to hear
it.
&amp;nbsp;
Sandy Clark



From: julian.rickards
[<a
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ">mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004
9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Don't
take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying
style such as a series of nested
divs whose role is only to apply different
backgrounds to the same content.
For example, the Onion Skinning technique
recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the
same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with
you&amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;nbsp;Why
not simply use the Title attribute
to add more information?
&amp;nbsp;
Jules
-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial
Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960

 -----Original Message-----From: sllists
[<a
href="mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ">mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 6:13
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the
&quot;training&quot; link being visible
and the program name wrapped
in a &amp;lt;span

class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately
Jaws honors display:none
so that doesn't work

..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;nbsp;
&amp;nbsp;
&amp;lt;a
href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span
class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for

Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;


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