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Re: Wai Aria how useful?

for

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Jul 27, 2010 7:03PM


As a user I am referring to the need to test using multiple products to
replicate the actual operating conditions of screen reader users that will
be experienced in the individual setting. Tried and true standards refer to
the widely accessible products that are used on a regular basis by a large
number of screen reader users. In other words the tried and true standards
refer to widely available products that are used e.g. Jaws and Window Eyes
and that testing needs to occur using multiple screen readers to insure
total accessibility.
chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Stewart" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?


What testing standards are you referring too, what is tried and true?
Testing with a specific AT product, in this case a brand of screen reader
does not insure any concrete measure of accessibility it only insure
compliance with that particular products approach to access in a given
operating systems with a given set of products.

Ron Stewart

-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
<EMAIL REMOVED>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:37 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?

As a screen reader user I would not consider those valid grounds for testing

purposes. The criteria especially that it is free is not a subjective
requirement to ascertain usage. I think I would stick with the tried and
true that has been around for testing purposes to insure compliance. It is
disappointing to even think that web designers would consider compromising
testing standards in this manner.
chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Faulkner" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?


Hi Michael,

>Why would you consider user testing with a screen reader that is not yet
widely used to be useful?

according to the latest webaim screen reader survey NVDA is commonly used by
25% of respondents.

Also it is a screen reader that is much more widley available than other
screen readers (localized into 20+ languages) and is free.

regards
steve
On 27 July 2010 14:36, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Why would you consider user testing with a screen reader that is not yet
> widely used to be useful? I agree that NVDA has better support for ARIA at
> this time than the main stream screen readers. But using NVDA for user
> testing for visually impaired users would be like relying on Arora as your
> browser for user testing for non-disabled users.
>
> Mike Moore
> (512) 424-4159
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 5:21 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
>
> This is true, and this is why I think usability testing, in general,
> should be done with NVDA rather than with the commercial screen
> readers, or, at least, alongside the major screen readers.
> I am very impressed with the NVDA performance, especially in this area.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 7/26/10, Patrick H. Lauke < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > also worth mentioning yahoo!'s YUI work there
> >
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> >
> > On 26 Jul 2010, at 21:39, "Hoffman, Allen" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just curious:
> >> Dojo and Jquery are the two always named sets of building blocks which
> >> include ARIA.
> >> Of the set of similar building blocks, is this 2% 50% or what?
> >> This proliferation of such building block sets which may or may not
> >> include easy use of accessibility features seems to be a real challenge
> to
> >> me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:43 PM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> Thanks very much for all the info.
> >> Like I said I am fairly new to all of this and it appears I
> >> misunderstood a few things, but I am all too happy to be corrected and
> >> will start with the pointers in your post for further research.
> >> The screen reader ownership survey surprises me though, it may be
> >> location specific, because I know the situation in a few countries in
> >> Europe and the user SR ownership seems to differ from this survey, so
> >> it is a good thing.
> >> I will post back with questions/comments after I update my knowledge
> >> some. *grin*
> >> Cheers
> >> -B
> >>
> >> On 7/22/10, Steven Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>> hi birkir,
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "You definitely cannot expect your users to be so up-to-date given the
> >>> price
> >>> of upgrades..."
> >>>
> >>> The webaim screen readers survey differs from your conclusion
> >>>
> >>> "The vast majority of respondents updated their primary screen reader
> >>> within
> >>> the previous year."
> >>> http://www.webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey2/#demographics
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. "
> >>>
> >>> There are no "ARIA keyboard shortcuts" as such:
> >>> The set of keyboard shortcuts defined for use in Google Reader has
> >>> NOTHING
> >>> to do with ARIA.
> >>>
> >>> What ARIA promotes is the implementation of keyboard interactions for
> >>> widgets that are the same or similar to those of controls in desktop
> >>> software applications
> >>>
> >>> "The model for keyboard support for Web 2.0 widgets are graphical user
> >>>> interface (GUI) operating systems like Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X;
> and
> >>>> other desktop operating systems like GNOME and GTK. "
> >>>
> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_generalnav
> >>>
> >>> There is an ongoing effort to specify keyboard keystrokes to be used
> for
> >>> web
> >>> based controls:
> >>> http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide
> >>>
> >>> These keyboard interaction best practices are being implemented in
> >>> javascript UI libraries such as DOJO and JQUERY so that users can rely
> >>> upon
> >>> the same or similar keystrokes being usable on for example a 'button'
> >>> regardless of whether its a native HTML button <button> or a button
> built
> >>> from divs and spans with added script to provide the user interaction.
> >>>
> >>>> Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. The
> >>>> application element is supposed to turn off screen reader key
> >>>> functionality but this does not always seem to work properly
> >>>
> >>> There is no clash per se, when in document reading mode, most key
> strokes
> >>> are consumed by the AT, this is why most windows based AT have a
> special
> >>> mode for interacting with native controls on web pages, which allows
> >>> keystrokes to be passed to the browser rather than consumed by the AT.
> >>> ARIA
> >>> extends this method to the custom controls built using a combination
> >>> of
> >>> HTML/scripting and CSS.
> >>>
> >>> The use of role="application" on an element indicates to AT that
> support
> >>> it
> >>> they should switch from document to application mode (so users can
> >>> interact
> >>> with controls using the keyboard). It is true that it sometimes does
> not
> >>> work, but i would suggest it is no more or less buggy than many of the
> >>> other
> >>> features in popular commercial screen readers.
> >>>
> >>> you wrote:
> >>> "/basically, yopu have to expect not all users can use Aria and even
> >>> for those who can, a lot of thought needs to go in to the key mapping
> >>> and you must ensure that the user can access a simple keyboard help
> >>> overview in a convenient format somehow (perhaps have it downloadable
> >>> as a .txt file or plain html page that opens in a new window or tab)."
> >>>
> >>> again what you are talking about has nothing to do with ARIA, in fact
> it
> >>> is
> >>> the opposite:
> >>> The use of ARIA on custom controls provides users with information
> about
> >>> the
> >>> role/state and properties of the control which typically results in
> >>> the
> >>> AT
> >>> providing hints about how to interact with the control.
> >>>
> >>> Tests and examples of what AT report when ARIA roles are encountered:
> >>> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/aria-tests/user-input-widgets.html
> >>> note these results are from 18 months ago.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Stevef
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2010/7/22 Birkir Rúnar Gunnarsson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>>
> >>>> There are a few inherent problems with Aria.
> >>>> To use it I believe that you need Firefox 3.5 or newer, IE8. As for
> >>>> screen readers I think it is Jaws 10 and above, Window Eyes 7 and
> >>>
> >>> above and Hal/Dolphin 11.2 and above (NVDA does a good job of
> >>>> recognizing Aria).
> >>>> You definitely cannot expect your users to be so up-to-date given the
> >>>> price of upgrades and relatively lousy set of improvements at least
> >>>> in
> >>>> Jaws lately (no bashing intended, Ijust feel that upgrades from Jaws
> >>>> 9
> >>>> have hardly been worth it).
> >>>> Another issue is clashes between screen reader key strokes while
> >>>> navigating a web page and assigned Aria keyboard shortcuts. The
> >>>> application element is supposed to turn off screen reader key
> >>>> functionality but this does not always seem to work properly (I will
> >>>> admit I lack expertees in this area, I am looking at it but this was
> >>>> discussed at length at the ICCHP conference I just attended).
> >>>> Thus a screen reader user must pass every keysroke to an Aria page
> >>>> through the screen reader by using the designed pass through key, and
> >>>> that is a relatively advanced operation (or rather, having the user
> >>>> recognize the need to do this is fairly advanced, one has to
> >>>> understand what type of page is being encounterred and what that
> >>>> means
> >>>> for navigation).
> >>>> Even if both of these issues are resoled and you have a user with
> >>>> compatible SR and browser and the switching off works, there is still
> >>>> a worrying lack of standards regarding keyboard mapping of aria
> >>>> elements, which means the user has to continually return to some type
> >>>> of on page help to see what keystrokes are required for what action
> >>>> (See GoogleReader as an example).
> >>>> These help messages do not (perhaps cannot) appear in a virtual
> >>>> buffer, meaning it is hard to copy them and recall them in a text
> >>>> document, so you have to kepp clicking on some type of help /
> >>>> overview
> >>>> on the page that tells you the functionality of each key stroke.
> >>>> There is a brilliant video demo about this, I will post it if I
> >>>> manage
> >>>> to dig it up from my conference lecture notes, which I will have time
> >>>> for over the weekend.
> >>>> /basically, yopu have to expect not all users can use Aria and even
> >>>> for those who can, a lot of thought needs to go in to the key mapping
> >>>> and you must ensure that the user can access a simple keyboard help
> >>>> overview in a convenient format somehow (perhaps have it downloadable
> >>>> as a .txt file or plain html page that opens in a new window or tab).
> >>>> Hope some of these thoughts help, plesae keep us updated and I will
> >>>> post back once I have sorted out my notes.
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> -B
> >>>>
> >>>> On 7/22/10, Seth Kane < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>>>> I have had little to no luck with ARIA unless you have the latest
> >>>>> and
> >>>> great
> >>>>> version of both browsers and screen readers. It isn't ready for the
> >>>> lowest
> >>>>> common denominator just yet. Maybe HTML5 will be better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Seth Kane
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:13 PM
> >>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Wai Aria how useful?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nancy Johnson wrote:
> >>>>>> How useful is WAI Aria to the average screen reader user who may
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> be
> >>>>>> technically inclined?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It depends on what version of a screenreader and browser they
> >>>>> have. With JAWS 11 + Firefox 3, for example, live regions get
> >>>>> announced in ways that some people find helpful (depending on how
> >>>>> well they have encoded).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Does this also help the mobility impaired user who is not visually
> >>>>>> impaired?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have found that there are circumstances in which ARIA
> >>>>> navigation changes the way the wonderful Firefox add-on
> >>>>> Mouseless Browsing interacts with a webpage in a way that gives
> >>>>> me more control over Ajax drop-down menus. I haven't narrowed it
> >>>>> down to exactly what features make things better, but I've been
> >>>>> meaning to.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -deborah
> >>>>>