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Re: Table headers not behaving

for

From: Mark Rew
Date: Sep 10, 2002 10:34AM

When we develop we should develop to the standards such as Section 508, html
4.01 etc. This way we will work with most of the packages that have agreed to
use these stanards. Then we try to encourage software vendors to comply with
the same standards. One way is the US Government mandating compliance with
Section 508 as a requirement of a purchase order.

Mark Rew

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foliot - bytown internet" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: Table headers not behaving


> Which poses the question: do developers code to standards and leave the
> implementation to the "interpreters (user agents)" or do we code to software
> bugs such as the one documented below? As Paul notes, 2 major screen
> reading technologies get it right, one gets it wrong.
>
> Developing complex tables is work enough to ensure accessibility, do we need
> to also work around software bugs? Everybody has their role to play,
> including Freedom Scientific. While not everybody agreed with the WaSP
> stance (http://www.webstandards.org/) when they first emerged, two years
> later we have (generally) compliant browsers. So who was right?
>
> I do not pose this question to antagonize, but by the same token I
> (personally) feel that it needs to be discussed.
>
> (Please - no flames!)
>
> JF
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Bohman [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > Sent: September 10, 2002 12:15 PM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: RE: Table headers not behaving
> >
> >
> > You've run across a bug in the JAWS algorithms, which is documented in
> > the WebAIM tables tutorial at http://www.webaim.org/howto/tables3
> > (towards the bottom of the page). Connect Outloud is essentially a
> > scaled down version of JAWS, with the same bugs.
> >
> > JAWS simply cannot handle any tables with any spanned rows or columns
> > correctly. It's sad, but true. Other screen readers do not have the same
> > problem. This is a bug specific to JAWS. IBM Home Page Reader and Window
> > Eyes, for example, would read this table correctly.
> >
> > The only solution, unfortunately, is to change the structure of the
> > table. In many cases this is a difficult proposition, and it may not be
> > possible to restructure all such tables. In some cases, you may have to
> > provide an additional alternative version of the data outside of a
> > table, like this:
> >
> > <begin example>
> > Rate information for "Classic Card:"
> > Rate for first six months: annual - 0%, monthly - 0%.
> > Ongoing rate: annual 13.9% - p.a., monthly - 1.09%.
> > APR for purchases and balance transfers: annual - 11.5% APR, monthly -
> > not applicable.
> > <end example>
> >
> > I know that most developers don't like it when I tell them about this
> > bug in JAWS. I don't like it either, but we have to remember that JAWS
> > is just software, and like all software, it has its glitches.
> >
> > If you're now getting worried about other potential bugs in screen
> > readers, don't worry too much. There are little things here and there,
> > but not like this one. Most of the problems have to do with lack of
> > support for certain accessibility features, rather than actual bugs. But
> > the table rowspan/columnspan issue is an actual bug. JAWS reads the
> > *wrong* headers when you span rows or columns.
> >
> > Paul Bohman
> > Technology Coordinator
> > WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
> > www.webaim.org
> > Center for Persons with Disabilities
> > www.cpd.usu.edu
> > Utah State University
> > www.usu.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 7:17 AM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: Table headers not behaving
> >
> >
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> >
> > I've been advising colleagues to use headers and ids in tables for more
> > complicated tables where scope doesn't cut it.
> >
> > I've just come back from holiday to find out that some relatively simple
> > tables (with just one colspan and rowspan) are not behaving when using
> > the
> > CTRL + ALT to navigate around (I would expect it to announce the
> > headers,
> > but it is doing so inconsistently). And because I've just returned from
> > holiday, brain has yet to kick in to action, so all help greatly
> > appreciated
> > ...
> >
> > FYI, I am using IE5 and Connect Outloud.
> >
> > Here is a snippet of an example table - can anyone tell me if this is
> > incorrect coding? Or is it the screen readers themselves that are not
> > yet up
> > to the job of referencing multiple headers?
> >
> > Many thanks, here's the table code:
> >
> > <table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="3" border="0" width="95%"
> > summary="Table
> > detailing the Classic Card Rates">
> > <thead>
> > <tr>
> > <th rowspan="2">&nbsp;</th>
> > <th colspan="2" id="product_title"><a href="#top"><img
> > src="../_credit-card_images/arrow-up.gif" alt="To top button" border="0"
> > align="right"></a>Classic Card</th>
> > </tr>
> > <tr>
> > <th id="annual" headers="product_title">Annual Rate</th>
> > <th id="monthly" headers="product_title">Monthly Rate</th
> > </tr>
> > </thead>
> > <tbody>
> > <tr>
> > <td class="data" scope="row">Rate for first 6 months</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title annual">0% p.a.</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title monthly">0% </td>
> > </tr>
> > <tr>
> > <td class="data" scope="row">Ongoing Rate</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title annual">13.9% p.a.</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title monthly">1.09%</td>
> > </tr>
> > <tr>
> > <td class="data" scope="row">APR for Purchases & Balance
> > Transfers</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title annual">11.5% APR</td>
> > <td class="NBSdata" headers="product_title monthly">N/A</td>
> > </tr>
> > </tbody>
> > </table>
> >
> > Ian Lloyd, Electronic Channels
> > Nationwide Building Society
> >
> > e-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > tel: 01793-655260
> > fax: 01793-656368
> >
> >
> > - -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > Sent: 10 September 2002 13:54
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: fonts in css
> >
> >
> > hello,
> > A while back someone posted some links that explained how to write font
> > definitions using inheritance so that css would be compliant with older
> > version of Netscape. Can you please repost those URL's? Our style
> > sheets
> > are defining font sizes using percentages for 508 compliancy but they
> > are
> > not understood by Netscape 4.0.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Cyndy
> >
> >
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