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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Nov 19, 2012 11:50AM

When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?

When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
interactive mode.

This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID attributes
in some ATs though.



----- Original Message -----
From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?


Hi Sailesh,

But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in browse
mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.

For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a birthday,
and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year, edit,
blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.

But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some screen
reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday. Edit,
blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse experience
than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and have
my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title text,
but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden labels
so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels been
used instead?

I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label, apart
from:
-- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
-- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding CSS
class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much just
as easy)
-- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users (which
could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)

What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
superior?

Thanks,
Zoe



Zoe Gillenwater
Web Accessibility Technical Architect
AT&T Consumer Digital Experience

o: 919-241-4083
e: <EMAIL REMOVED>

4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703

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-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:13 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?

On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Sailesh,
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for a
> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading
> mode?
> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal
> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits the
ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a search
edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve as
'labels') that a title works adequately.
In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
reader does not read the title in browse mode.
So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It does
not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and do
not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always maybe
for a reason.

If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
appending off-screen text to the label is fine.

>
> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically connected
> to
> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your
> response
> either...
Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode and
for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other piece of
text on the page in non-forms mode.

Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com
Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>
> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
>
> Thanks,
> Zoe
>
> Zoe Gillenwater
> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>
> o: 919-241-4083
> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>
> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> this
> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> Panchang
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>
> Zoe,
> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
> But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
> associated with the form control.
> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this
> determination.
> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
> screen reader output.
>
> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
>
> Thanks,
> Sailesh Panchang
> www.deque.com
> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>
>
> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> Hi Sailesh,
>>
>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
>> difference
>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
>> reading
>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always gets
>> read
>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me, as
>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and doesn't
>> give
>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to go
>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title
>> text
>> in normal reading mode?
>>
>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so you
>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
>> this
>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a pretty
>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
>> using
>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
>> possible, of course!).
>>
>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Zoe
>>
>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>>
>> o: 919-241-4083
>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>>
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
>> this
>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> dissemination,
>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
>> Panchang
>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>
>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>>
>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
>> and legacy ones.
>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
>> need them.
>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
>> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
>> unless CSS is turned off.
>> Sailesh Panchang
>> Deque Systems
>>
>>
>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
>>> specific
>>> type of Assistive Technology.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mike Burks
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
>>> Burks
>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
>>> Dragon
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Mike Burks
>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
>>> Benson
>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>
>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>>> think.
>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
>>> label.
>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
>>> versus
>>> linking words.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Angela French wrote:
>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>>>>
>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception I
>>>> think.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
>>>> attribute brings in this case?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Léonie.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
>>>> French
>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
>>>>
>>>> Example:
>>>>
>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Angela French
>>>> Internet Specialist
>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>>>> 360-704-4316
>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> >>> >>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >