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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Nov 20, 2012 12:55PM

James,
Sure, I know that.
And Patrick,
Please refer to the first email to James which has the reasoning. It
is the description of H44:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/H44
Thanks and regards,
Sailesh



On 11/20/12, James Nurthen < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Sailesh,
> The fact is that nothing in 3.3.2 requires programmatic association of
> fields and labels. 3.3.2 deals with providing labels or instructions for
> fields, not their association.
> 3.3.2 can be met by (for example) applying G131 (Providing Descriptive
> Labels) and G162 (Positioning labels to maximize predictability of
> relationships). so even the following:
> <span>First Name</span><input type="text"> would meet 3.3.2
>
> Programmatic association of fields and labels is covered by 1.3.1 in WCAG2.
>
> regards,
> James
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Sailesh Panchang <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> James,
>> >>my opinion this meets 3.3.2.
>> And I pointed out documentation that does not support that view.
>> Certainly techniques and understanding docs are not normative and are
>> guidance docs.
>> The 'How to meet' doc suggests what is appropriate in different circs.
>> and in fact is a guide to how to meet the SC.
>> Label text that is not marked up as a label is not 'associated' with
>> the control.
>> I never said title does not work for screen reader / magnifier users.
>> Title is simply not the recommended technique in the circumstance.
>> Label helps other user groups as I pointed out earlier. If you wish to
>> ignore them, it is your prerogative.
>> Sailesh Panchang
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/20/12, James Nurthen < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> > Sailesh,
>> >
>> > There is nothing in WCAG which states that you have to use any of the
>> > prescribed techniques. The important thing is to meet the Success
>> Criteria.
>> > 3.3.2 states
>> > "3.3.2 Labels or Instructions: Labels or instructions are provided when
>> > content requires user input. (Level A)".
>> > The Understanding document provides more
>> > "The intent of this Success Criterion is to help users avoid making
>> > mistakes when their input is required. To help avoid mistakes it is
>> > good
>> > user interface design to provide simple instructions and cues for
>> entering
>> > information. Some users with disabilities may be more likely to make
>> > mistakes than users without disabilities or recovery from mistakes may
>> > be
>> > more difficult, making mistake avoidance an important strategy for
>> > users
>> > with disabilities. People with disabilities rely on well documented
>> > forms
>> > and procedures to interact with a page. Blind users need to know
>> > exactly
>> > what information should be entered into form fields and what the
>> available
>> > choices are. Simple instructions visually connected to form controls
>> > can
>> > assist users with cognitive disabilities or those accessing a page
>> > using
>> a
>> > screen magnifier."
>> >
>> > In this simple example there is a label associated visually with the
>> field.
>> > There is also the title (which happens in this case to be the identical
>> to
>> > the visible label) which is programmatically associated with the field.
>> In
>> > my opinion this meets 3.3.2.
>> >
>> > I am certainly not saying that this is the optimal design as label is
>> > certainly better, but we shouldn't rule out techniques which actually
>> work
>> > for users due to the fact that they are not optimal. I'd much rather
>> > that
>> > the developers of web sites and applications spent their limited time
>> > fixing issues which actually cause a problem rather than fix areas
>> > where
>> > their code is not optimal but actually don't cause users any issues.
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > James
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Sailesh Panchang <
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello James,
>> >>
>> >> Technique H65 says use title if UI does not support visible label
>> >> text.
>> >> In your example there is no apparent reason for not using label
>> >> element and for-id association. Title should not be used there.
>> >> Refer to: Description for H44:[1]
>> >> "However, for Success Criterion 3.3.2, the label element must be
>> >> visible since it provides assistance to all users who need help
>> >> understanding the purpose of the field. "
>> >> There are other user groups besides screen reader users who are
>> >> benefited by label association.
>> >>
>> >> Sailesh
>> >>
>> >> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/H44
>> >> On 11/20/12, James Nurthen < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> > Sailesh,
>> >> > I'm not sure how this fails 3.3.2. Can you explain how the following
>> >> fails
>> >> > 3.3.2?
>> >> >
>> >> > <div>First Name</div><input type="text" title="First Name">
>> >> >
>> >> > I understand it is better practice to specify the label using for
>> >> > and
>> >> > id,
>> >> > but I'm not seeing how this example actually fails 3.3.2
>> >> >
>> >> > regards,
>> >> > James
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
>> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Zoe / Bryan,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
>> >> >> (without activating forms mode).
>> >> >> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
>> >> >> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
>> >> >> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead
>> will
>> >> >> fail SC 3.3.2.
>> >> >> It is not alright to simply use title there.
>> >> >> Sailesh
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >> > When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow
>> keys
>> >> to
>> >> >> > navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing
>> these
>> >> >> > announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing
>> >> >> > using
>> >> >> > interactive mode.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form
>> >> >> > field
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
>> >> >> attributes
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > in some ATs though.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> > From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> >> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> >> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Sailesh,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > browse
>> >> >> > mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a
>> >> >> > different
>> >> >> > experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
>> >> >> birthday,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in
>> >> >> > browse
>> >> >> > mode
>> >> >> > something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank.
>> >> >> > Year,
>> >> >> edit,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me
>> >> >> > to
>> >> know
>> >> >> > whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text,
>> >> >> > some
>> >> >> screen
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > reader users would now hear in browse mode something like
>> "Birthday.
>> >> >> Edit,
>> >> >> > blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
>> >> >> experience
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields
>> >> >> > is,
>> >> and
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the
>> >> >> > title
>> >> >> text,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide
>> hidden
>> >> >> labels
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible
>> labels
>> >> >> > been
>> >> >> > used instead?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden
>> >> >> > label,
>> >> >> apart
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > from:
>> >> >> > -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
>> >> >> > -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a
>> >> >> > hiding
>> >> >> CSS
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is
>> >> >> > pretty
>> >> much
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > as easy)
>> >> >> > -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted
>> >> >> > users
>> >> >> > (which
>> >> >> > could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some
>> >> >> > situations)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > superior?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> > Zoe
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Zoe Gillenwater
>> >> >> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> >> >> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > o: 919-241-4083
>> >> >> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property,
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the
>> >> >> > individual
>> >> >> > or
>> >> >> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
>> >> named
>> >> >> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
>> >> received
>> >> >> this
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
>> >> >> > message
>> >> >> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> >> >> > dissemination,
>> >> >> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>> >> >> > prohibited.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> >> >> > Sailesh
>> >> >> Panchang
>> >> >> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:13 PM
>> >> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> Hi Sailesh,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's
>> good
>> >> >> >> for
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal
>> >> >> >> reading
>> >> >> >> mode?
>> >> >> >> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in
>> >> >> >> normal
>> >> >> >> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
>> >> >> > Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a
>> >> >> > search
>> >> >> > edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve
>> >> >> > as
>> >> >> > 'labels') that a title works adequately.
>> >> >> > In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
>> >> >> > reader does not read the title in browse mode.
>> >> >> > So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It
>> does
>> >> >> > not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
>> >> >> > It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
>> >> >> > headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
>> >> >> > Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and
>> do
>> >> >> > not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always
>> >> >> > maybe
>> >> >> > for a reason.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
>> >> >> > appending off-screen text to the label is fine.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically
>> >> >> connected
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of
>> your
>> >> >> >> response
>> >> >> >> either...
>> >> >> > Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other
>> >> >> > piece
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > text on the page in non-forms mode.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Sailesh Panchang
>> >> >> > www.deque.com
>> >> >> > Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> >> Zoe
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Zoe Gillenwater
>> >> >> >> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> >> >> >> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> o: 919-241-4083
>> >> >> >> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property,
>> are
>> >> >> >> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the
>> individual
>> >> or
>> >> >> >> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> named
>> >> >> >> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
>> >> >> >> received
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
>> >> >> >> message
>> >> >> >> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> >> >> >> dissemination,
>> >> >> >> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>> >> prohibited.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> Sailesh
>> >> >> >> Panchang
>> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
>> >> >> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Zoe,
>> >> >> >> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader
>> >> >> >> reads
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
>> >> >> >> But then one is reading content that is not visually available
>> >> >> >> on
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
>> >> >> >> associated with the form control.
>> >> >> >> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make
>> >> >> >> this
>> >> >> >> determination.
>> >> >> >> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure /
>> info-relationships
>> >> >> >> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
>> >> >> >> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync
>> >> >> >> with
>> >> >> >> screen reader output.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the
>> >> >> >> control.
>> >> >> >> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> >> Sailesh Panchang
>> >> >> >> www.deque.com
>> >> >> >> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>> Hi Sailesh,
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> difference
>> >> >> >>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few
>> >> screen
>> >> >> >>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in
>> normal
>> >> >> >>> reading
>> >> >> >>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label
>> always
>> >> >> >>> gets
>> >> >> >>> read
>> >> >> >>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> me,
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> >>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and
>> >> >> >>> doesn't
>> >> >> >>> give
>> >> >> >>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you
>> want
>> >> to
>> >> >> go
>> >> >> >>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with
>> >> title
>> >> >> >>> text
>> >> >> >>> in normal reading mode?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not
>> >> >> >>> announced
>> >> >> >>> in
>> >> >> >>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not
>> >> >> >>> announced,
>> >> >> >>> so
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> >>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for.
>> >> Granted,
>> >> >> >>> this
>> >> >> >>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still,
>> >> >> >>> it's
>> a
>> >> >> >>> pretty
>> >> >> >>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've
>> >> >> >>> had
>> >> >> >>> no
>> >> >> >>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of
>> >> >> >>> this,
>> >> >> >>> using
>> >> >> >>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text
>> >> >> >>> has
>> >> >> >>> its
>> >> >> >>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should
>> >> >> >>> be
>> >> the
>> >> >> >>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels
>> >> >> >>> whenever
>> >> >> >>> possible, of course!).
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Thanks,
>> >> >> >>> Zoe
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Zoe Gillenwater
>> >> >> >>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
>> >> >> >>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> o: 919-241-4083
>> >> >> >>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property,
>> >> >> >>> are
>> >> >> >>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the
>> >> >> >>> individual
>> >> >> >>> or
>> >> >> >>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of
>> the
>> >> >> named
>> >> >> >>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
>> >> >> >>> received
>> >> >> >>> this
>> >> >> >>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this
>> message
>> >> >> >>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
>> >> >> >>> dissemination,
>> >> >> >>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>> >> >> >>> prohibited.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> Sailesh
>> >> >> >>> Panchang
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
>> >> >> >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used
>> >> >> >>> when
>> >> >> >>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form
>> control
>> >> is
>> >> >> >>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
>> >> >> >>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to
>> >> >> >>> incorporate
>> >> a
>> >> >> >>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of
>> >> >> >>> control
>> >> >> >>> to
>> >> >> >>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both
>> >> >> >>> recent
>> >> >> >>> and legacy ones.
>> >> >> >>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users
>> >> >> >>> who
>> >> >> >>> might
>> >> >> >>> need them.
>> >> >> >>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and
>> >> >> >>> code
>> >> >> >>> and not available to anyone except screen reader /
>> >> >> >>> magnification
>> >> >> >>> users
>> >> >> >>> unless CSS is turned off.
>> >> >> >>> Sailesh Panchang
>> >> >> >>> Deque Systems
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not
>> >> >> >>>> to
>> >> >> >>>> a
>> >> >> >>>> specific
>> >> >> >>>> type of Assistive Technology.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Sincerely,
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Mike Burks
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> >> >> >>>> Michael
>> >> >> >>>> R.
>> >> >> >>>> Burks
>> >> >> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
>> >> >> >>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
>> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well
>> >> >> >>>> with
>> >> >> >>>> Dragon
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Sincerely,
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Mike Burks
>> >> >> >>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
>> >> >> >>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> >> >> >>>> Ryan
>> >> >> >>>> E.
>> >> >> >>>> Benson
>> >> >> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
>> >> >> >>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> >> >> >>>>> default,
>> >> >> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
>> >> >> >>>>> exception
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> >>>>> think.
>> >> >> >>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead
>> of
>> >> >> >>>> the
>> >> >> >>>> label.
>> >> >> >>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the
>> >> >> >>>> title
>> >> >> >>>> versus
>> >> >> >>>> linking words.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> --
>> >> >> >>>> Ryan E. Benson
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson
>> >> >> >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> Angela French wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a
>> >> >> >>>>> text
>> >> >> >>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
>> >> >> >>>>> <input>
>> >> >> >>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other
>> >> >> >>>>> words,
>> >> >> >>>>> would
>> >> >> >>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
>> >> >> >>>>> default,
>> >> >> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the
>> >> >> >>>>> exception
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> >>>>> think.
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value
>> >> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >> >>>>> title
>> >> >> >>>>> attribute brings in this case?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Léonie.
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of
>> >> >> >>>>> Angela
>> >> >> >>>>> French
>> >> >> >>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
>> >> >> >>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
>> >> >> >>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Hello,
>> >> >> >>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a
>> >> >> >>>>> text
>> >> >> >>>>> field
>> >> >> >>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
>> >> >> >>>>> <input>
>> >> tag
>> >> >> >>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words,
>> would
>> >> >> >>>>> a
>> >> >> >>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Example:
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen">
>> Search</label><input
>> >> >> >>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Thank you,
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Angela French
>> >> >> >>>>> Internet Specialist
>> >> >> >>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> >> >> >>>>> 360-704-4316
>> >> >> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> http://list.webaim.org/Address
>> >> >> >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> http://list.webaim.org/Address
>> >> >> >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Address
>> >> >> list
>> >> >> >>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Address
>> >> >> list
>> >> >> >>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >>
> > > >