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Re: JWAS and special characters pronunciation

for

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Jan 2, 2014 11:51AM

Olaf wrote: "the main reason probably is that HTML needs to be able to
distinguish between ordered and unordered list, in order to create the
proper bullets or numbering...In PDF, all is said and done in this regard -
the bullets or numbers or whatever are already part of the page content..."

I understand, but I still don't think this justifies having 2 different sets
of tags for different file formats.
Does either set of code provide a better experience for AT users?
When reading a PDF, would screen reader users like to hear "bulleted list"
and "numbered list" rather than just "list" and a bunch of label jibberish
that often isn't voiced?

..
We're asking billions of people around the world to make a substantial
change to the way they do their everyday job.

We're asking them — and sometimes legislating them — to make an accessible
document.

If we want them to go the extra mile and make their documents accessible for
us, then we'd better make it as simple as possible for them to do so.
Otherwise we won't get their psychological "buy-in," making it more
difficult to achieve our goal: to provide equal access to all forms of
information to all people with disabilities.

If I want authors, editors, and designers who create content to change their
behavior and make accessible documents, why tell them to use <UL> and <OL>
when they're making the HTML version of the document, and <L> when they're
creating a PDF? This makes it less easy, more confusing to the average
writer.

Considering that the people who create these documents must create a
bazillion of them every day in all sorts of file formats, it's better to
streamline the standards and have all formats use the same set of tags for
accessibility. Since HTML was addressing accessibility standards long before
everyone else, they set the standard. It doesn't do any good to ignore that
standard later down the road and create a different set of rules for PDF.

I teach several thousand people a year how to make accessible documents. At
some point in the training, every student asks why it's the <L> tag in PDF
while everywhere else it's <UL> and <OL>.

I don't have a good explanation for them.

—Bevi Chagnon
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-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Olaf Drümmer
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 8:48 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JWAS and special characters pronunciation

… sorry, I have to jump on here: ;-)

Am 2 Jan 2014 um 07:01 schrieb "Chagnon | PubCom" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:

> Example: I have never been able to find a good reason why the PDF
> accessibility tag for lists is the generic <L>, while HTML defines 2
> list tags, <UL> and <OL>. It's as if Adobe invented its own wheel
> rather than using HTML's perfectly good wheel. No additional value was
> added by switching to <L>, and the consequence to AT developers is
> that they now must write code to recognize all three variations of list
tags.

the main reason probably is that HTML needs to be able to distinguish
between ordered and unordered list, in order to create the proper bullets or
numbering...

In PDF, all is said and done in this regard - the bullets or numbers or
whatever are already part of the page content, no hint needed as to how to
generate them. Rather the bullet or numbering is enclosed in a Lbl tag. BTW
- this is much more flexible than HTML which may have to use
(presentational) CSS hacks where PDF can actually remain more semantic ;-)

Those wishing to give a suitable hint to a tool repurposing the PDF into
HTML are encouraged to use the ListNumbering attribute for the given list.


Olaf