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Re: Keyboard navigation using arrows only

for

From: Michael Tangen
Date: Sep 3, 2014 10:29AM

I get your point, but the problem is that all of the documentation out
there for creating accessible web menus is in itself both convoluted and
inaccessible to the average web developer/designer. You know why there's a
lot of "hacks" out there? This would be the reason.


On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Garaventa <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> I understand, my point isn't with your implementation, but with the use of
> ARIA for this purpose, which won't work as expected for screen reader users.
>
> The reason for ARIA menu markup isn't just to announce 'submenu' or
> 'menu', but this actually causes specific behaviors to occur within
> browser/AT combinations, and using ARIA just to get screen readers to
> announce a specific keyword is an ARIA hack that goes against the spec.
> Meaning that it won't work reliably across devices as a result.
>
> You would be better served using offscreen text as part of the link in
> order to achieve this, than you would using ARIA improperly for this
> purpose.
>
> I don't mean to sound harsh about this, but I see implementations such as
> these every day, and they never work reliably across browsers and devices
> when programmed in ways that are not expected by user agents and ATs in
> accord with the spec.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tangen
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 9:11 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only
>
> I'm not talking about Windows menus, Bryan — just basic web-based
> navigation. With a deep-linking menu on a website, both the attributes
> aria-haspopup on the <a> tag and the role="menu" on the submenu UL tag cue
> JAWS in on that there's a submenu and announce it accordingly. The
> physical presence of an "arrow" in a website menu does not necessarily add
> significant value (in my opinion) when the aforementioned attributes
> facilitate the announcing of the presence of a submenu. Can it add some
> level of benefit? Sure, but I think most of the value is for sited users.
> Just my take on it.
>
> Also for what it's worth, Microsoft Windows controls are irrelevant when
> you're trying to build websites and be agnostic about operating systems and
> browsers.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > >When a link tag has the aria attribute aria-haspopup="true", JAWS
> > actually announces the words "has submenu". So really, the arrow is
> > only of value to sighted users.
> >
> > That's not true actually.
> >
> > Regarding ARIA Menus, the Windows platform UI equivalent for this is
> > documented at
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.controls.contex
> > tmenu.aspx
> >
> > When an ARIA Menu is constructed strictly according to spec, It causes
> > specific events to fire in the browser, which Assistive Technologies
> > then use to ensure accessibility by customizing feedback and behavior.
> >
> > This process is documented in the UAIG, at
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_events_menus
> >
> > If you try the following demo using JAWS in IE or FF, you will see
> > this in
> > action:
> >
> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Menus/Vertical%20(Intern
> > al%20Content)/demo.htm
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael Tangen
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 4:40 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only
> >
> > When a link tag has the aria attribute aria-haspopup="true", JAWS
> > actually announces the words "has submenu". So really, the arrow is
> > only of value to sighted users.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Mallory van Achterberg <
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Sep 02, 2014 at 02:40:22PM -0500, Michael Tangen wrote:
> > > > It all has to do with the placement of role="menu", role="menuitem"
> > > > and a variety of other ARIA attributes.
> > >
> > > My fault for mentioning menus... it's apparently the entire site in
> > > this case.
> > >
> > > > - I also found that for some reason, the *first level* LI tags
> > > > need
> > an
> > > > attribute role="menu" if you want the presence of a sub-menu to be
> > > > announced.
> > > Yeah the specs mention the main ul is "menubar" while the li's are
> > > "menu"s.
> > > I would think this is to do with the type of "menu" the specs seem
> > > to be written for: application menus where each option is often
> > > itself a sort of mini-application-menu.
> > >
> > > _mallory
> > > > > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > > messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> > > >