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Re: Are fieldset and legend still relevant?

for

From: Lynn Holdsworth
Date: Dec 30, 2014 8:45AM

http://behindtheyellowline.org.uk/labelledby.htm

OK, have just tested these three examples with VoiceOver on iOS 8 in
its default state, and got similar results, except that using
VoiceOver I can't seem to see a fieldset's legend at all.

So I think I'll stick my neck out and propose that now we have
solutions other than using fieldset and legend, the fieldset/legend
solution by itself isn't enough.

Option 3, using a fieldset's legend as an ARIA label (thank you Birkir
for this idea), seems to cover all bases.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts on this.

Kind regards, Lynn

On 30/12/2014, Lynn Holdsworth < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
> I guess I've been conflating testing with development. I'm both a
> tester and dev, and I tend to do that. Apologies for any confusion.
>
> If something works with most AT in its out-of-the-box state, but not
> with one slightly tweaked popular AT, I don't think it would do any
> harm to recommend to developers a few changes that would make it work
> for more people.
>
> Kind regards, Lynn
>
> On 30/12/2014, Thomas McKeithan II < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> I concur with Joy. We should determine conformance to the standards basd
>> upon how the page is coded and not how a specific AT Tool behavors. For
>> years I've advocated fot testing using AT Tools with the "out of the Box"
>> settings rather than customizations.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Thomas Lee McKeithan II
>> QSSI
>> http://www.qssinc.com
>> 508 SME, SSQA Solutions Center
>> 10480 Little Patuxent Pkwy , Suite 350
>> Columbia , MD 21044
>> (301 )977-7884 x1058 (Work)
>> (202) 276-6437 (Cell)
>>
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>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Lynn
>> Holdsworth
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 8:21 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Are fieldset and legend still relevant?
>>
>> Hi Joy,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments and the good points you make.
>>
>> I believe the user is King and we should do everything possible to get as
>> close to total inclusivity as we can.
>>
>> I take your point that it's frustrating to have to code for one group of
>> users whose AT is set to a particular setting. But I would guess that a
>> significant enough number of people are using JAWS with intermediate or
>> advanced verbosity settings to make that bit of extra effort worthwhile.
>>
>> Does the WebAIM survey collect data on verbosity settings? If not it
>> might
>> be worth considering this for next year's survey.
>>
>> Thanks, Lynn
>>
>> On 30/12/2014, Lynn Holdsworth < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Hi Birkir,
>>>
>>> Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. I'm not advocating using
>>> invisible labels, but rather using ARIA-LABELLEDBY to associate a form
>>> field with a piece of text that's visible somewhere appropriate on the
>>> page.
>>>
>>> I've knocked up some examples. With JAWS 15 set to advanced verbosity,
>>> the second and third examples work beautifully, while in the first the
>>> "Gender" label is ignored.
>>>
>>> http://behindtheyellowline.org.uk/labelledby.htm
>>>
>>> (Excuse any validation errors - quick turn-around time and all that!)
>>>
>>> I'll try these with NVDA and VoiceOver when I get a moment, and may
>>> create some more complex examples to illustrate what I'm trying to
>>> achieve.
>>>
>>> But for now, would fieldset and legend alone cover WCAG2?
>>>
>>> Thanks, Lynn
>>>
>>> On 30/12/2014, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Hi Lynn
>>>>
>>>> It depends how you construct the aria-label I would say.
>>>> The relevant pieces of info user needs to ahve access to are the
>>>> labels for the individual fields as well as the common label for the
>>>> group of fields.
>>>> How would you code a gender radiobutton set for instance?
>>>> User would want to hear
>>>> "gender male"
>>>> "gender female"
>>>> or at least hear the word "gender" on the first radiobutton, the one
>>>> that has focus, right?
>>>> Generally I would recommend fieldset with legend "gender" and two
>>>> radiobuttons labeled "male" and "female".
>>>> If for whatever reason that is not possible I would just construct an
>>>> aria group.
>>>> <div role="group" aria-labelledby="gender">
>>>> <h3 id="gender">Gender</h3>
>>>> <label for "gm">Male</label>
>>>> <input type="radio" name="rbgender" id="gm"> <label for
>>>> "gm=f">Female</label> <input type="radio" name="rbgender" id="gf">
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> You could construct an aria-label and add the legend text to one or
>>>> more of the radiobuttons.
>>>> It would communicate the same info.
>>>> The risk with aria-labels in general is that they are invisible and I
>>>> often see developers being sloppy and making typos that do not get
>>>> caught by their QA teams.
>>>>
>>>> I think the Jaws setting is honestly a bit weird.
>>>> Users can be extra super power users with Jaws, but they still cannot
>>>> guess what a common legend for a fieldset or a tooltip is on a page
>>>> (aria-describedby values are not read by Jaws with verbosity set to
>>>> "advanced").
>>>> The verbosity setting is not even set for the browser specifically,
>>>> it is the global setting.
>>>> I think FS should fix this.
>>>> I digress. ;)
>>>> In short, yes, fieldset/legends are still important to me, though
>>>> there are ways one could work around it and code the legend into the
>>>> labels.
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> On 12/30/14, Lynn Holdsworth < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just going through WebAIM's invaluable list of checkpoints, and
>>>>> found this one under 1.3.1: Info and relationships:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Text labels are associated with form input elements. Related form
>>>>> elements are grouped with fieldset/legend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather than using fieldset and legend to group form elements, for a
>>>>> while now I've been using CSS and ARIA labels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fieldsets were always pretty flaky with screenreaders. I have my
>>>>> JAWS setting set to advanced, and so legends don't get read out as I
>>>>> tab through the elements inside a fieldset. But ARIA labels do. And
>>>>> they get read out in the order that the developer deems most sensible.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I use both legends and ARIA labels, some users must listen to the
>>>>> labels twice, sometimes once before and once after the info about
>>>>> the element with focus, which could get pretty confusing for
>>>>> beginners.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Lynn
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>>>> >>>> >>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>
>>>
>> >> >> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> >> >>
>