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RE: Explicit Link Between Radio Buttons and "Question" Label?

for

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Feb 12, 2003 1:41PM

I will grant that my answer was simplistic, and that the standards could be
more robust. My intention was not to be condescending, although perhaps it
came across that way.

I do want to address your points, though.

First of all, everything that I have read says that it is alright to have
nested fieldsets. The W3C's own validator (http://validator.w3.org) accepts
nested fieldsets just fine. This, then, shouldn't be a barrier from a design
standpoint. On this particular point, it is not a matter of me trying to
make everyone conform to an impossible standard, because this part of the
standard does allow for the kind of flexibility that I think you're asking
for.

However, I recognize that there are some serious limitations in the standard
with regard to some elements of form design, such as the problem of trying
to associate a single label with multiple input elements, as in the case of
a phone number that is broken into three or more sections for area code,
city code, and number, for example. (This issue has been discussed
previously on the list). This and other limitations are real and a bit
limiting (despite the fact that there are workarounds). I don't deny that at
all.

When I markup forms for my own Web designs, I recognize the inherent
limitations of the HTML language that I'm working with. I am also aware of
the standards, and I always try to think from the standards outward. In
other words, I think through process of developing the form with the
standards, rather than try to make my form fit into the standards after
having designed it.

In my particular role, as a Web accessibility educator, people are quick to
point out when I make mistakes in my own coding, so I have made the
commitment to do everything according to the published standards as much as
possible, if only to save myself from angry emails from other accessibility
advocates. It is my role that has caused me to take a bit of a stricter
approach than the average Web developer.

I admit that if I were not in this role, the stricter approach would not
seem quite as enticing to me. But I will also say that I have been able to
accomplish my design objectives within this "standards first" approach. And,
over time, I have found that I prefer to think within the standards. It has
caused me to think structurally, and not just concentrate on the resulting
visual output. In many cases, this has led to improved designs for all
users.

Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Lori K. Brown [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:38 PM
To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: RE: Explicit Link Between Radio Buttons and "Question" Label?


Paul-

I know that you are trying to be helpful, but I find your answer to
be a classic example of 'standards speak', where my requirements are
wrong and the spec is right,

...

I still maintain that until / unless the spec is enhanced to allow
me to nest fieldsets (the outermost fieldset groups form elements
topically, the inside ones group questions & answers, for example),
there is not currently a good answer to this problem.

Lori Kay Brown
User Interface Engineer
SiteScape, Inc.
E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>



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