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Re: Financial Tables

for

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Oct 17, 2015 3:29AM

Julie, thanks for the greater detail. With so much going on, the simplest approach for accessibility as well as usability would be to add this additional information in a note before the table: "Revenue stated in billion USD. Negative values are in parentheses."

The extra space before and double underline beneath (or is it above?) the totals seem like features that should be added by CSS, using a class for the role in question. For these visible affordances, no explanatory note is necessary.

Cliff Tyllick
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Julie Lewis < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> Great points all. Thank you.
>
> Don - the table isn't set up that way.
>
> The units are specific to the columns. The left has the revenue source,
> the next few columns are the amounts in US dollars by year. So the column
> header is "year" not "amount". And the right-most column is "percent
> change". That one is self-explanatory.
>
> By default, the screen reader will just read the numbers from left to
> right - which is pretty meaningless.
> If they are reading by column, then "percent change" is self-explanatory,
> but "year" isn't. A single dollar sign in the first row might help. But
> is that enough?
>
> To make things even more complicated, there are multiple tables and some
> are in thousands of dollars and some are in millions of dollars.
>
> We have literally thousands of tables of our web site, so we need to trade
> off what's reasonable from a development standpoint with what is needed
> for accessibility (and usability) for all users.
>
> In some cases I can get away with tweaking the table format, but in many
> others I can't do that. The people creating the tables have been
> formatting them in very specific ways for many years, so I need to be able
> to justify those changes. (They get ruffled if I don't use double
> underlines and leave extra space before a total.)
>
> The secondary problem of putting negative numbers in parentheses wouldn't
> be a problem if the screen readers read the parentheses, but it doesn't
> sound like they do that consistently.
>
> Regards,
> Julie Lewis
>
>
>
>
> On 10/15/15, 1:00 PM, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of
> <EMAIL REMOVED> "
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> on behalf of
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>>> On 10/15/15, _mallory < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> It also can't hurt to state, before the table (or maybe after, but
>>> better before) how you denote negatives, or if the dollars are in
>>> millions (or that it's in dollars at all)... There was a time when I
>>> did not know of the (parentheses) convention for negative numbers, and
>>> only learned of it when I was old enough to do taxes. So it doesn't
>>> hurt to tell people in a quick short sentence stuff that might be
>>> obvious or well-known to the majority of readers anyway.
>>>
>>> If someone knows or suspects their AT won't read out a symbol, knowing
>>> beforehand that a symbol is being used can let people decide if they
>>> need to fiddle with their punctuation first. In any case, can't hurt
>>> to say it.
>>>
>>> This can give you more freedom inside the table itself.
>>>
>>> _mallory
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 02:29:03PM -0700, Don Mauck wrote:
>>>> From my understanding of this thread, it seems to me that each "row"
>>>> should have the math sign relevant to that row. I am however, only
>>>> thinking from a screen readers perspective and realize that there are
>>>> other contributing factors. What I'm not clear on, is if the intent
>>>> is that each row could have a different math sign and that there will
>>>> be columns of data related to a column heading.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Julie Lewis [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:55 PM
>>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility in Financial Tables in HTML
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if I don¹t do this right it¹s been a looong time since I
>>>> participated in an email only list-serv.
>>>>
>>>> I wrote:
>>>>> The printed version of the table has dollar signs in front of the
>>>>> numbers on the first and last rows and percent signs only on the
>>>>> first and last rows. Does that provide enough context? Or should
>>>>> every cell have $ or % explicitly called out?
>>>>
>>>> Olaf said:
>>>> Å this does not have anything to do with accessibility, but with
>>>> usability
>>>>
>>>> I reply:
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. From a usability perspective it¹s pretty clear that less
>>>> is more. The question is whether a non-sighted user will have enough
>>>> context to figure out what the numbers mean if they are just traversing
>>>> the table.
>>>>
>>>> The header for percent change is self-explanatory, but the headers
>>>> for the dollar amounts aren¹t unless the user actually listens to the
>>>> title.
>>>>
>>>> Since HTML5 has deprecated the table summary tag, (why oh why did
>>>> they do
>>>> that?) that may not be an option going forward.
>>>>
>>>> It¹s a bummer that MacOS doesn¹t read the parentheses, since that¹s a
>>>> much cleaner way of representing negatives than relying on a dash.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rio
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> >> >> athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >
> > > >