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Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers


From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Nov 29, 2015 7:07PM

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:45:52 +1000, Kevin Prince < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Some interesting comments here - I don't see anyt need to throw away
> those notetakes. For one thing they are a handy braille display and
> great for ‘taking notes'. Are they the best device for surfing the web?
> Unlikely but they pair neatly with your phone which probably is etc etc
> and will act as great add on to your PC.

Very good points.

> I don't agree with the concept of trying to do everything on
> them(especially in education) - sighted people don't just use one device

Actually, that depends a lot on how rich the sighted user is, how they get
their devices, and how they learn to switch devices.

In my experience, and there is at least some research that shows this is
common, *most* people who need glasses to magnify things don't increase
the text size to something comfortable but instead strain to read things
that are too small. Despite having an effective and free tool in their
hand to solve the problem properly.

> so why would blind users

Unfortunately, many people are stuck in a real-world situation where they
can only have one device, and it was decided in the past what that device
would be. For example, employees in large companies are often highly
constrained in what they can use - although the constraints are often just
stupid, and there are other similar companies where such constraints do
not apply.

Other people are relying on something they learned to use, or the way they
learned to use something they have. Millions of people *do* use Word, but
have almost no idea how to do basic things that make it work really well -
and don't even know that they could (and should) be doing things that way.

> - go with the one that makes sense in the context you find yourself. I
> wouldn't write an essay on a phone, but I might fact check for it or
> catch my email on the fly etc etc

Sure. But if it is the best tool that you have, you would indeed use it.

The question boils down to understanding what people have, and do, out
there in the real world. It is important to help us use better tools, and
use our tools better, but just assuming we will do so is ignoring reality.


> Kevin
> Access1in5
> 0212220638
> 039290692
> Independent Accessibility and IT Consultancy.
>> On 19/11/2015, at 20:10, Cliff Tyllick < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> "Ever so slightly too complicated"?
>> Ella, in many cases that's an extreme understatement. Whenever I have
>> given a presentation, I have found myself showing one example of an
>> interface that is too complicated for everyone. (It's never the same
>> example. Often, I find an example that is actually easier to figure out
>> if you rely on a screen reader but can't see the screen.)
>> Many who read your message will infer that you mean these sites should
>> regress to a plain format. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that. What
>> you mean is that the available features should be easy for everyone to
>> discover and use—or, in the parlance of WCAG 2.0, "perceive" and
>> "operate."
>> There are two solutions to that problem that we haven't pursued enough:
>> 1. Site owners, content managers, designers, and developers should
>> conduct more usability testing of their designs, and they should
>> include people with disabilities among the participants. Those who do
>> will make it easier for all people to use the Web.
>> 2. The accessibility community should build and maintain an application
>> any Web professional can use to discover known techniques for producing
>> usable and accessible interactions in the presentation technology they
>> are using. The same application would allow developers to submit new
>> techniques they have used to solve a previously unsolved problem or to
>> improve upon an existing solution. Each technique submitted should be
>> specific; include appropriate examples of its implementation; be tagged
>> according to the interface or interaction (form, text input, error
>> checking, labels for fieldsets, navigation menus, and so on), the
>> presentation technology (HTML, PDF, XHTML, Word for Windows, Open
>> Office, Drupal, WordPress, Plone, Bootstrap.js, and so on), the
>> presentation environments in which it works (video, audio, wearables,
>> smart phones, large monitors, haptic interfaces, and others), the
>> disability addressed, the relevant WCAG success criteria, and other
>> relevant features if I've missed any; and be linked to closely related
>> solutions, relevant tutorials, explanations of the underlying
>> principles, and the like.
>> This application would make it easier for all authors, content
>> managers, designers, and developers to build a highly usable and
>> accessible Web. It would also help us win over people who fear that
>> it's difficult, expensive, or time consuming to build accessible,
>> usable interactions—because instead of having to stop everything to
>> take a tutorial or figure out a checklist and its results, they could
>> get a quick solution to their specific problem in their first
>> experience with making their product accessible. (If there is no
>> solution, or at least no ideal solution, they could find that out
>> quickly and revise their plans accordingly. Maybe that means they would
>> give this phase of their project more time. Maybe it means they would
>> scrap the original approach and use another instead.)
>> If the W3C won't coordinate the building of this application and then
>> host it, the IAAP should. Rob Sinclair, the first president of the
>> IAAP, lamented in an interview that he had once had to let a group of
>> developers know that the solution they had worked so hard to develop
>> was a duplicate of a solution others had developed two years earlier.
>> With this application in place, it would be highly unlikely for that
>> circumstance to arise again.
>> Because even the most seasoned developer could quickly discover whether
>> someone has finally figured out how to build a carrousel that will
>> thrill users with its accessibility, usability, and relevance every bit
>> as much as it thrills marketers and executives with whatever it is that
>> thrills them about carrousels.
>> Best regards,
>> Cliff Tyllick
>> Accessibility curmudgeon on my own time.
>> In my day job, accessibility specialist for the Texas Department of
>> Assistive and Rehabilitative Services.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are
>> its fault.
>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Ella Yu < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat
>>> simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so
>>> slightly too complicated.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Harrison, Rita L" < <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>> Good Afternoon List,
>>> After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my
>>> observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be
>>> familiar with Notetaking Devices.
>>> First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler,
>>> if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology
>>> (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is
>>> proper structure and all elements are labeled.
>>> Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the
>>> web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in
>>> braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write
>>> with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.
>>> I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and
>>> find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings,
>>> when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.
>>> Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille
>>> Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and
>>> sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using
>>> these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need
>>> when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we
>>> should expect to be able to access information online using a current
>>> browser.
>>> I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I
>>> thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.
>>> I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!
>>> Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
>>> Lead, 508 Web Task Force
>>> Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
>>> Web Support Team (WST)
>>> Phone: 805-620-0203
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Lucy Greco
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
>>> reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking
>>> for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices like a
>>> braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never
>>> meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when
>>> blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more
>>> technology my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is
>>> save your money and pay for training on how to use a computer and
>>> mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at
>>> the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can
>>> access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a
>>> web site with my braille note. when the web site is accessible if
>>> they were just using the write tech to do so. in the age of bring your
>>> own device we have a responsibility to be sure the device we are
>>> bringing meets the base line for security and access that every one
>>> else has to meet. If a blind person is using a device like a braille
>>> note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only
>>> a matter of time before that data is used against them
>>>> Lucia Greco
>>>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>>>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Simon Evans < <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>> Hi Ella,
>>> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
>>> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too,
>>> so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
>>> devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
>>> later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
>>> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>>> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
>>> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
>>> against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
>>> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
>>> desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant
>>> and
>>> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>>> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
>>> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
>>> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
>>> people.
>>> Simon
>>> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
>>> possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
>>> (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
>>> who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
>>> could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
>>> think?
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > --
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
<EMAIL REMOVED> - - - Find more at http://yandex.com