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Re: Web development; How to identify if a screen reader is in use

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From: Jordan Wilson
Date: May 12, 2017 2:41PM

I'll jump in on Jon's side of this - I believe better data and tracking is important.

At scale its very difficult to manage accessibility priorities with so little data. I'm not looking for data to weigh accessibility against no accessibility, I'm weighing 90 accessibility projects against each other and looking to optimize the accessibility of what's already been made accessible.

A lot of this discussion has been fixed on the legal reasons for accessibility, but the marketing opportunity reasons can be even more compelling. If I'm missing 32,000 visitors a month because my site doesn't provide strong accessibility I don't just want to remediate to the minimum standard, I want to enhance the experience so that it's driving business. That means Marketing and Sales are now advocates and not just Legal/Compliance. Marketing is driven by data, without it we'll never get them on board.

How many of you are building sites that are compatible w/ IE5 or IE6? The answer is (hopefully) none. Because of data. We make decisions because of data all of the time. We've all been in a meeting where someone uses theory craft to voice an opinion but then someone else shows the actual data and the opinion shifts.

The same is true of accessibility data - my accessibility budget is large, but we all have limited resources. I have hundreds of sites and millions of assets that I need to make accessible. Stronger data would allow me to better allocate our resources to benefit the most people over time. Without it, I'm doing the best I can in the dark based only on opinion and I have very little information about what is really going on.

Here's how I would use good data if I had it:

Prioritization:
Two sites get a ~ 8 million hits a month. Site A gets 150,000 AT hits a month, site B gets 63,000. Let's remediate Site A first then Site B.

Identifying Pain Points:
90% of AT users started this particular form and didn't complete it. We should re-evaluate that form to make sure we didn't miss an issue.

Showing lost opportunity:
There are 130,000 AT users visiting the site but only 500 completing a transaction. That rate is much lower than the site average. How can we optimize the experience?

Avoiding waste:
Only 112 AT users / year are using this archival PDF service but the effort to remediate will take a ton of resources. We'll provide an appropriate on-demand solution until we have finished other more important accessibility projects.

Identifying trends and outliers:
Across all of our sites, AT user's average time spent per visit is 105% of non AT users. Site X is at 20% why is there such a discrepancy?

Showing improvement trends:
Ever since we remediated the site, AT users are spending on average 4 minutes per visit which is now comparable to the average and up 140 seconds.

Having AT data is not about disability detection - in fact as Jon described that's not even possible. Detecting keyboard input doesn't tell us anything about a user's individual disability. It really is about technology patterns. As a manager of multiple digital projects, the disability of one individual is not useful and is protected under security and privacy laws.

What's useful are cumulative technology trends, outliers and prioritization of solutions.

-Jordan


On 5/12/17, 10:13 AM, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of Jonathan Avila" < <EMAIL REMOVED> on behalf of <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> sniffing for a screen reader (for example) doesn't mean that the end user is actually using the screen reader themselves (it may be a shared machine, where 1/2 of a "couple" need a screen reader, the other doesn't), or situations where both sighted and non-sighted users are looking at the same web page together at the same time.

I'm not talking about whether a screen reader is installed but rather looking at the user's behavior on the site to predict whether the user is navigating with a screen reader. I agree that a person could be using a screen reader and also use a mouse and the person may not have a disability. That supports the point that I am trying to make that the purpose is not to detect people with disabilities but to understand user behaviors using different technologies. So this isn't about disability -- many people without disabilities use speech output for navigation and speech output (and input) with Alexis and Siri. So it's more about understanding how the user is interacting with the site regardless of anything else.

> Thus, the presence of AT alone is meaningless, and attempts in using that data to modify the user-experience will likely fail as often as succeed.

I never suggested that the data should be modified or redirected for a screen reader user. That's the knee jerk reactions that everyone has had. I am against alternative sites. Separate is not equal.

In the future we will be interacting with content in many different ways both accessing the information and operating the content. Having information on those interactions is important to supporting different method of interaction, adaption, etc. It's nice to say just create your website using universal design and it will work for everyone. But that's an oversimplification that doesn't address the real world obstacles that even WCAG conformant sites have. We are living in a situation where assistive technology is always behind the current technology and where huge gaps in user agent support exist. This isn't just about screen readers -- for example, we need better data on other user behaviors such as zoom. Low vision people are asking for 400% zoom with no scrolling in the direction of the text in WCAG 2.1 on sites and some on this list are pushing back suggesting 150% is only possible. But without data we don't know what most people are using and we don't know what sites are really capable of. Data is an important part of research and can help us make more informed decisions on how prevalent zoom is used and at what level, etc.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
<EMAIL REMOVED>
703.637.8957 (Office)
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
Download our CSUN Presentations Here!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of John Foliot
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 1:49 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen reader is in use

Jon wrote:

> the short answer is yes, with limitations on not knowing the specific
version or model of screen reader.

Really? Since when? (Although, after writing this, I do recall seeing a third-party analytics program that could spit out iOS details, but only iOS... and i freaked out when i saw that too.)

I recall a number of years ago at a CSUN (back in the LAX days) where the president of Freedom Scientific explicitly stated that they would be opposed to anything like that, and would actively block attempts at doing that. Additionally, this is not a new request, yet this is the first time I am hearing that you can actually target AT (outside of the hoary old Flash test of years ago). Jon, can you point this list to further reading / resources about this please?

Like others who have chimed in, there are serious security and privacy considerations that need to be contemplated here. Additionally, sniffing for a screen reader (for example) doesn't mean that the end user is actually using the screen reader themselves (it may be a shared machine, where 1/2 of a "couple" need a screen reader, the other doesn't), or situations where both sighted and non-sighted users are looking at the same web page together at the same time. Thus, the presence of AT alone is meaningless, and attempts in using that data to modify the user-experience will likely fail as often as succeed.

In short, IMHO this is a really bad idea.

> Does anybody with a disability who reads this list remember how
liberating it was to be able to be on the Internet and not be identified, unless one chose to?

Agreed! What's the old New Yorker cartoon? "On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog"? This is not a bad thing!

JF

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Lucy Greco < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> use best pracktuses and do not even think about detecting my screen
> reader i don't want you to change your site thinking that is the only
> way to make your site useable if that is the only way no one elce
> likes what your doing and they might want you to re think the fancy
> stuff that needs to be changed for them to
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
> California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Jonathan Avila <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > > Another concern is "numbers." If you take any given segment of the
> > disabled population, blind people, deaf people, low vision persons,
> screen
> > reader users, etc., its numbers are going to be relatively low
> > compared
> to
> > the whole.
> >
> > Dave, I agree. Any numbers have to carefully be considered and
> > message
> to
> > stakeholders. It is however compelling to be able to say x% of your
> screen
> > reader users are using Firefox or x% are using Internet Explorer and
> > x%
> are
> > using Chrome while x% of your zoom users are using Chrome, etc.
> > Knowing how many screen reader users are using iOS who visit your
> > site versus Android may allow you to focus or not focus on browser
> > specific issues or decide how to handle potential touch challenges
> > with certain AT and user agent combinations.
> >
> > Right now the community only has access to the WebAIM screen reader
> survey
> > to get information about these topics. This is an important area
> > where
> we
> > need more data to focus and push back to organizations and say you
> > can't just focus on one user agent just because all of your non-AT
> > users are using that user agent -- you have to consider user agents
> > used by people with assistive technology as well.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> > SSB BART Group
> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > 703.637.8957 (Office)
> > Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> > Download our CSUN Presentations Here!
> >
> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of Andrews, David B (DEED)
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:23 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use
> >
> > Another concern is "numbers." If you take any given segment of the
> > disabled population, blind people, deaf people, low vision persons,
> screen
> > reader users, etc., its numbers are going to be relatively low
> > compared
> to
> > the whole. So, I think people are afraid that if sites have specific
> > numbers, "I only had five screen reader users last month," for
> > example,
> it
> > will work against us, and not for us in the long run.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 11:15 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use
> >
> > > Even if it comes from good intentions, I am loathe to support an
> > > idea
> > that results in a "separate, but equal" experience.
> >
> > Any technology has the capacity to be mis-used -- telephones are
> > mis-used everyday to spam or harass callers. However, overlooking
> > the benefits
> of a
> > potential technology must be considered. Any intention to identify
> > user behaviors has benefits. For example, scripts already exist to
> > identify high contrast users in order to provide them with
> > equivalent information when background images are turned off.
> > Responsive websites are used
> every
> > day and adjust to the users viewport width which is based on factors
> > including low vision users using the zoom feature in your browsers.
> > So I would urge people to consider this not as a means to track
> > people with disabilities to better understand how users are
> > interacting with your website and provide adaptability and flexibility to those users.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> > SSB BART Group
> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > 703.637.8957 (Office)
> > Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
> > Download our CSUN Presentations Here!
> >
> > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of
> > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message
> > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of Thompson, Rachel
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:09 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use
> >
> > Hi, all.
> >
> > Automatic detection of assistive technology presents problems in my
> world.
> > We cannot legally "out" someone with a disability and this approach
> > has
> the
> > potential to do that. This would certainly be an issue for our
> > lawyers if it existed on any sort of application materials for
> > attending or working
> at
> > our institution.
> >
> > Even if it comes from good intentions, I am loathe to support an
> > idea
> that
> > results in a "separate, but equal" experience.
> >
> > Hope you have a good day,
> > Rachel
> >
> > Dr. Rachel S. Thompson
> > Director, Emerging Technology and Accessibility The Center for
> > Instructional Technology The University of Alabama
> > 110 Russell Hall
> > Box 870248
> > Tuscaloosa, AL 35487
> > Phone 205-348-0216
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> | http://cit.ua.edu | http://accessibility.ua.edu
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of Beranek, Nicholas
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 10:58 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Not for Web Accessibility. On iOS, we have the ability to detect
> > whether or not assistive technologies like VoiceOver are running,
> > but this is
> only
> > through native applications. I remember discussions about how people
> would
> > feel if developers could detect whether or not they're using a
> > screen reader, magnifier, or other AT. I don't recall what came out
> > of those discussions.
> >
> > I gave a talk about data and accessibility and how we're unable to
> > get numbers related to screen reader usage. If we could, would we
> > use it to "water down" the experience? We are firm believers at
> > Capital One in providing an inclusive and enriching experience regardless of disability.
> >
> > I think it's time to discuss this very topic again. Thanks for
> > bringing
> it
> > up.
> >
> > Nick Beranek
> > Capital One
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> > Behalf Of John Contarino x245
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 11:48 AM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Web development; How to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use
> >
> > Hi,
> > Is it possible in web site development to identify if a screen
> > reader is in use by the end user?
> > Similar to how different browsers are identified and can be
> > interpreted
> in
> > code based on browser.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > John Contarino
> > Programmer Analyst
> >
> >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and/or
> > proprietary to Capital One and/or its affiliates and may only be
> > used solely in performance of work or services for Capital One. The
> information
> > transmitted herewith is intended only for use by the individual or
> > entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is
> > not the
> intended
> > recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission,
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> > any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited.
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> > sender and delete the material from your computer.
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >



--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
<EMAIL REMOVED>

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion