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Re: Icon instead of text > open in new window

for

From: Jeremy Echols
Date: May 15, 2017 2:07PM

Okay, let me see if I'm reading this correctly. I'm not trying to be obnoxious here, I just don't see how the title can do what you say. I am in agreement that you don't need to announce external pages; at this point I'm just trying to make sure I understand how titles are meant to be handled.

According to https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#link, a link gets its name from content or author. This means a link follows all rules in https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation. The link doesn't have aria labeling, so 2A doesn't get triggered. It's not going to trigger 2B as far as I can tell, as it's just a simple link and not some form of widget. 2C appears to apply, as the link role allows "nameFrom: contents ". 2C seems to push for looking at children of the node in question, which triggers rule 3, which seems to me to say that it will use the text, "Facebook" as the accessible name. Rule 2D, which uses the title, will not apply because a suitable accessible name was already found: "The last resort is to use text from a tooltip attribute (such as the title attribute in HTML). This is used only if nothing else, including subtree content, has provided results."

The rules for computing accessible description and accessible name appear to be the same (other than description using aria-describedby if present), so the name and description in this case would both be "Facebook". I can forcibly change the description with an aria-describedby attribute, but not title, as it is only used if the rest of the calculations produced nothing.

Testing in NVDA and Firefox, I see the behavior I expected: "Facebook visited link" when using a title, or "Facebook visited link blah blah blah" when referring to an element via aria-describedby.

I believe this is correct behavior, and not a bug in the browser or screen reader.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 12:04 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Icon instead of text > open in new window

The title attribute maps to the element´s accessible description property when it is not the source of the element's accessible name.
https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-aam-1.1/

Therefore it should be announced by assistive technologies in addition to the element´s accessible name.
If it isn't, we need to file bugs with browsers and a.t. vendors, until they fix it.
Announcing when an clicking an element opens a new tab or window is not a WCAG 2.0 level A or AA requirement, as already discussed.
Now that we have a W3C specification that tells us how the title attribute should be treated, we need to start respecting that specification and make sure the vendors and the assistive technologies do their parts, allowing the authors to use a convenient attribute that should increase accessibility.
We can´t always tell authors not to do something that is proper use of an attribute and according to spec, just because it is not supported.
Instead we need to ask ourselves why it is not supported and reach out to those who are not supporting it.
If we discover reasons wy they technically can´t support it )e.g. a title attribute on a non focusable element is hard to communicate by any technology, because we don´t know the context in which it is used or how users browser to it), we can change the spec.
If there is no reason (I think a title attribute on a focusable element should always be exposed when that element receives focus), we need to ask the vendors to support it.
I know this is a slight over simplification, standards and technologies are complex, but I believe we need to do more to push consistency between browsers and assistive technologies forward, not always ask the authors to create workarounds.
The accessible name calculation standard is a huge step forward in dictating how the title attribute should be treated, it was excellent work! Now let's go ahead and take advantage of it.
Cheers
-B




On 5/15/17, Jeremy Echols < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Part of the problem is that it needs to be advisory information only,
> not information that makes the page accessible. The reason it needs
> to be unimportant text is that it may not be read by a screen reader.
> In testing, NVDA isn't reading a title on an <a> tag, nor am I able to
> see the title in Firefox unless I hover the mouse over it (keyboard focus isn't enough).
>
> From WebAIM again:
>
> "The title attribute is not read for most elements by default in most
> screen readers. Exceptions are the frame element and form elements
> that do not have a label. When a form element does not have a label,
> but does have a title, the title will typically be read. This
> approach, however, is often a misuse of title - if the title attribute
> is necessary to ensure accessibility of the form element, then it is
> certainly contains more than simply advisory information."
>
> If the fact that it opens externally is an important consideration for
> AT users, a title won't suffice. If opening in an external tab/window
> isn't important, then there's no need to put it in a title since AT
> users likely won't get that title anyway.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:24 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Icon instead of text > open in new window
>
> The purpose of the title attribute is to convey extra information
> about an element.
> When that element is a link, I believe that is exactly the information
> that would work in the title attribute.
> There are many ways to convey information, some ideal, some good enough.
> That
>
>
> On 5/15/17, Jeremy Echols < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> I may be wrong, but I think the title attribute would be incorrect.
>> WebAIM's notes on titles says they should "NOT be used as a
>> replacement for alternative text, form labels, table headers, etc.":
>> http://webaim.org/articles/gonewild/#title
>>
>> If there's an icon conveying important information, I'm of the
>> opinion it should be an actual image with alt text, and not a background image.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2017 7:14 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Icon instead of text > open in new window
>>
>> Here is my 1.5 cents (opinions are getting cheap).
>>
>> 1. Notifying users that a link opens in a new window or tab is not a
>> WCAG A or AA requiements (as JOnathan already said), so you don't
>> have to worry about it from an accessibility compliance perspective,
>> however it is good usability to let users know that, even more so
>> when the link opens a video or a PDF document (change of user agent).
>> 2. If you decide to put an icon on the link that notifies users of
>> this, it becomes a WCAG 1.1.1 requirement (because all meaningful
>> non-text content need a text alternative).
>>
>> I recommend using the title attribute on the link to notify users.
>> If the image is a background image you can't use an alt attribute anyway.
>> If it is an <img> just set its alt to ""
>> <a href="#" title="opens in new window">Facebook <span
>> icon="external"></span></a> or <a href="#" title="opens in new
>> window">Facebook <img src="externalIcon.jpg" alt=""></a>
>>
>> I agree that, in general, we should leave it to the user.
>> The exception is any help content links in a flow (because diverting
>> the user away from the flow cane make it difficult for them to return
>> to the flow, and will make them less likely to complete the flow).
>> I think all help or product links in a checkout flow, for instance,
>> should open in a new window or tab.
>> I also think all social media sharing icons should open in a new
>> window, just because it is such a different task from navigating the
>> website. But that is just my personal take and no standard.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/8/17, Sophie Ragas < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> Well, I just want to give the user control of how he handles links,
>>> so I wouldn´t let links open in new windows at all. Let the user
>>> decide if he wants a new window or tab. I thought that that practice
>>> was generally recommended?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Sophie
>>>
>>> 2017-05-08 15:02 GMT+02:00 Patrick H. Lauke < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:
>>>
>>>> On 08/05/2017 13:49, Sophie Ragas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Just being the devils advocate here: I think that a Facebook-logo
>>>>> (or any other well-known site/platform) already implies for
>>>>> sighted users they are leaving the website they are currently on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the question isn't about external vs internal links, but rather
>>>> whether or not the link opens a new window.
>>>>
>>>> P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sophie
>>>>>
>>>>> 2017-05-08 14:31 GMT+02:00 <EMAIL REMOVED> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:
>>>>>
>>>>> This works great even on touch devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Srinivasu Chakravarthula
>>>>>> +91-9900810881
>>>>>> Sent on my phone. Excuse typos, if any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08-May-2017, at 17:00, Fernand van Olphen <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something like this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/Techniques/working-examples/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> G201/new-window.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Fernand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> De disclaimer van toepassing op e-mail van de gemeente Den Haag
>>>>>>> vindt u
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> op: http://www.denhaag.nl/disclaimer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>>>
>>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
>>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
>>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
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>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
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> >


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