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Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table


From: Don Mauck
Date: Mar 29, 2018 3:15PM

There is, however, they really don't address nested tables.

-----Original Message-----
From: Walker, Michael E [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table

Hi Don, have you looked at Freedom Scientific's Surfs Up guides for nested tables? I do not recall if they present examples on nested tables, but do remember that there is a section on dealing with difficult web pages.-----Original Message-----From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Don MauckSent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 12:52 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex tableI've seen JAWS handle some nested tables, although there was a time where JAWS17 certainly didn't. I have a simple nested table example that both NVDA and JAWS do ok with in the current versions. I seem to remember that at one time there were articles that suggested that nested tables be avoided, however, I'm not finding those articles, so, might have dreamt it. -----Original Message-----From: glen walker [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 11:17 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex tableKind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver will not.And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick withctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use asimple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the boundary.So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?>> Sean> -----Original Message-----> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of > Jonathan Avila> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 4:39 AM> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table>> > I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can> understand why they would do it.>> Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows > as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works.> Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a > problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may > not be a bug.>> Jonathan>> Jonathan Avila> Chief Accessibility Officer> Level Access> <EMAIL REMOVED> > 703.637.8957 office>> Visit us online:> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog>> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!>>> -----Original Message-----> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On > Behalf Of glen walker> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 12:30 PM> To: WebAIM Discussion List> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS cannot handle complex table>> I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with > an html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm > attaching an html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come > through on the archives. The table should be as you described, but I > also have a button before and after the table because I like to tab > into my test page to a focusable object first, and then use T to > navigate to the table, strictly for testing purposes.>> NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) > does not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing.> Row 2 contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells > spanning multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the > first two columns. The last two data cells aren't really there > because the cells belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the > table after the second data cell.>> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can > understand why they would do it.>> NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate > across row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row > 3, if I try to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA > also interprets the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.>> I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I > swipe right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2.> The VO focus then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two > cells and then the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver > thinks the spanned cells belong to row 2 and that there are only two > data cells in row 3. The nice thing about VO is that it told me the > last two cells in row 2 spanned four rows. I don't know if JAWS or > NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking that down.>> The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up > correctly because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.>> Glen>