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Re: [EXTERNAL]heading question

for

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Dec 16, 2019 7:13AM

All good points.
I expect that those who are aware of and respond to the WebAIM survey
tend to be technology enthusiasts, at least enough to follow the world
of accessibility, so the sample will be skewed somewhat towards
proficient users.

It's true that, both with headings and landmarks, the key to them
being useful is consistent and logical application by authors, it's
the chicken and egg problem.

If headings are not consistently applied they are not very useful, if
they are not very useful they are not often used, if they are not
often used authors see no reason for carefully considering their
heading structure.

I think this happened a bit by landmarks, authors got confused, pages
saw a bit of an influx of superfluous landmarks, screen reader users
complained of "noise" (our users often refer to long semantic
descriptions as "screen reader noise", and there is something to
that), vendors took a step back in their landmark announcements (Jaws
no longer exposes landmarks in browse mode unless you change verbosity
settings to reveal them).
This is bad because landmarks are better than heading levels in two
respects, a. the boundries (beginning and end) of a landmark region is
available and 2. they are consistent across the page layout (headings
describe the content, landmarks describe the page).

I think, as advocates, the best we can do is to build towards
consistent use of headings and landmarks, just like we have been
doing.
I think/hope web navigation techniques can be a larger part of
assistive technology user training.



On 12/16/19, Andrews, David B (DEED) < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Actually what I think he is saying is that people don't pay attention to the
> heading number, whether it is a 2 or 3 or whatever. They use the h key and
> jump from heading to heading. Yes, the number, if used properly, conveys
> important information, but the heading itself also does. It says two
> things, this is important, and this is a change from what was before it. It
> is sometimes quicker just to use the h key instead of a heading level
> number. With nesting you might get it wrong and have to try something else.
> The h key is quick and moves to each heading, you don't have to worry about
> skipping a heading or anything.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Mark
> Magennis
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 7:57 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question
>
> This message may be from an external email source.
> Do not select links or open attachments unless verified. Report all
> suspicious emails to Minnesota IT Services Security Operations Center.
>
> >
> But Steve, the WebAIM survey reports that 86.1% of respondents describe
> heading levels as "useful" to them. Which seems to be at odds with your
> experience that "they don't take much notice of the heading levels".
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Steve
> Green
> Sent: 16 December 2019 11:46
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question
>
> I don't think our findings are at odds with the WebAIM survey. Most screen
> reader users do use headings to navigate, but they don't take much notice of
> the heading levels except for the <h1>, which they expect to be at the top
> of the main content. As long as the headings are marked up as a heading of
> some level, people can find them easily using the H key or the headings
> list.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Mark
> Magennis
> Sent: 16 December 2019 10:28
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question
>
> Great to hear results from real user testing Steve. Your experience that
> users rarely take notice of the heading level is really useful information.
>
> It seems a bit at odds with the findings from the latest WebAIM screen
> reader survey though (note that the WebAIM survey is based on an
> uncontrolled sample, I don't know about your testing). WebAIM asked "When
> navigating a web page by headings, how useful are the heading levels (e.g.,
> "Heading 1", "Heading 2", etc.) to you?".
>
> 52.2% said heading levels are "Very useful" and 33.9% "Somewhat useful".
> Only 11% said "Not very useful" or "Not at all useful".
>
> As an aside, I note that the WebAIM survey indicates that use of headings
> has increased over the years. The numbers of respondents reporting that they
> use headings as their first approach to finding information on a lengthy
> page has increased as follows. 2009=50.8%, 2012=60.8%, 2014=65.6%,
> 2017=67.5%, 2019=68.8% .
>
> Mark
>
> Mark Magennis
> Skillsoft | mobile: +353 87 60 60 162
> Accessibility Specialist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Steve
> Green
> Sent: 15 December 2019 01:47
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] heading question
>
> Birkir's experience of user testing is exactly the same as mine during
> hundreds of sessions over 15 years. Even when people use headings to
> navigate through a page, they rarely take notice of the level. It tends to
> be the most highly proficient users who take note of the heading levels, so
> small errors in nesting don't cause them any difficulty.
>
> That said, I think that errors in the heading structure should be limited to
> occasional skipped levels. That is often unavoidable when pages are built
> from common components in a CMS. However, it would not be acceptable for
> subheadings to have a higher level than their parent heading.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: 14 December 2019 23:43
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] heading question
>
> The heading levels need to correspond to the visual weight of the text,
> which of course can be subjective (what if heading text is the same size but
> one has an underline or a different color).
> Also, while levels are important I think there are sitautions where skipping
> heading levels is justified.
> For instance, if you have a book, its title is an h1, then there is a
> dedication or author's note that contains a sentence or two of text, then
> there are individual chapters and sub chapters.
> The text author's note should be a heading, but not necessary an h2, it does
> not mark a chapter in the book, an h3 or h4 is more appropriate and likely
> more in line with the visual presentation.
> These are the exceptions and consecutive heading levels are good practice,
> but WCAG does not outright require them.
> In recent usability testing with a number of screen reader users I've found
> that very few use heading levels or even pay attention to them much to my
> surprise. They do look for an h1 heading, but that's about it.
>
>
>
> On 12/14/19, David Engebretson Jr. < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>> Howdy!
>>
>> Heading structure is one of my main topics in the general
>> accessibility presentations I give.
>>
>> I always profess their should be 1 heading level 1 on a page (at the
>> beginning of the main region) that matches the <title> of the page -
>> then the sections of the page should be marked as heading level 2 with
>> subsections at heading level 3 and sub-subsections at heading level 4.
>>
>> It's not difficult to provide semantic heading structure. It's
>> difficult to create the awareness that it is important.
>>
>> I think the most difficult aspect, at least for me as a blind
>> developer and a11y enthusiast, is to convince sighted developers that
>> they can always adjust styling through CSS in a properly formatted
>> digital document. CSS is simple but not all sighted folks know how to
>> use it. I don't know how to use it either so I'm super empathetic. I
>> can't tell if I'm causing text collisions with my styling adjustments.
>>
>> It's a bit of a conundrum, no?
>>
>> Best,
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
>> L Snider
>> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 12:51 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] heading question
>>
>> I differ from others, heading order is crucial for me.
>>
>> Everyone I know who relies on a screen reader (I don't rely on one)
>> has told me this over the years. I know WCAG is different, but in my
>> view it is a problem. Think of reading things every day with a screen
>> reader, and not knowing what was going on, because the headings were
>> totally out of whack.
>> After all, I have to ask, why then do headings have numbers in the
>> first place?
>>
>> I know others will disagree, but I don't call it petty at all.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 6:46 PM Tyler Shepard
>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I am reviewing a website which has headings. The first heading is an
>>> h1, the next is an h3. I feel a bit petty for putting in my notes
>>> they should change the heading put it as an h2. It doesn't damage
>>> the flow. Am I over reacting over something so small?
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>
>
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