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Re: [EXTERNAL] heading question

for

From: Mark Magennis
Date: Dec 16, 2019 8:02AM

I expect the difference in the reported and observed value users place on heading levels is very likely due to different user samples, which illustrates a problem area for accessibility. As Birkir says, the WebAIM survey may represent a user population more advanced in their screen reader capabilities than the general population. Although it may not even be apt to talk about "the general population" in relation to the audience for a specific product. I think the lack of rich, reliable, sample controlled user experience data is a real drawback for accessibility. I've done a lot of user testing in the past, mostly for general usability but also for accessibility, and I'm inclined to agree with what Jakob Nielsen said when he was asked "what makes someone a usability expert?". His answer was (paraphrased, I can't remember exactly) "someone who has witnessed hundreds of user tests". There's more to it than that of course (e.g. knowledge of processes, tools and techniques used in UX, dev and QA), but I've found user testing to be very insightful. Not just for myself, but also for designers and developers who often experience a moment of profound realization the first time they witness an AT user using their product. I also find it very insightful to see data or reports from user tests I've not witnessed myself, although testing with one audience doesn't necessarily translate to another and can even be very misleading so you have to be careful when drawing inferences. I hope to be doing a lot more accessibility user testing next year but resourcing it is always a challenge ☹.

Mark

Mark Magennis
Skillsoft | mobile: +353 87 60 60 162
Accessibility Specialist


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: 16 December 2019 14:31
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. Extremely few people seem to form a mental model of pages that is as detailed as including heading levels. They may do if they use a website frequently, but in that case they should also have enough familiarity to be able to cope with any skipped heading levels

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Andrews, David B (DEED)
Sent: 16 December 2019 14:02
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question

Actually what I think he is saying is that people don't pay attention to the heading number, whether it is a 2 or 3 or whatever. They use the h key and jump from heading to heading. Yes, the number, if used properly, conveys important information, but the heading itself also does. It says two things, this is important, and this is a change from what was before it. It is sometimes quicker just to use the h key instead of a heading level number. With nesting you might get it wrong and have to try something else. The h key is quick and moves to each heading, you don't have to worry about skipping a heading or anything.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 7:57 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question

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But Steve, the WebAIM survey reports that 86.1% of respondents describe heading levels as "useful" to them. Which seems to be at odds with your experience that "they don't take much notice of the heading levels".

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: 16 December 2019 11:46
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question

I don't think our findings are at odds with the WebAIM survey. Most screen reader users do use headings to navigate, but they don't take much notice of the heading levels except for the <h1>, which they expect to be at the top of the main content. As long as the headings are marked up as a heading of some level, people can find them easily using the H key or the headings list.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Mark Magennis
Sent: 16 December 2019 10:28
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: heading question

Great to hear results from real user testing Steve. Your experience that users rarely take notice of the heading level is really useful information.

It seems a bit at odds with the findings from the latest WebAIM screen reader survey though (note that the WebAIM survey is based on an uncontrolled sample, I don't know about your testing). WebAIM asked "When navigating a web page by headings, how useful are the heading levels (e.g., "Heading 1", "Heading 2", etc.) to you?".

52.2% said heading levels are "Very useful" and 33.9% "Somewhat useful". Only 11% said "Not very useful" or "Not at all useful".

As an aside, I note that the WebAIM survey indicates that use of headings has increased over the years. The numbers of respondents reporting that they use headings as their first approach to finding information on a lengthy page has increased as follows. 2009P.8%, 2012`.8%, 2014e.6%, 2017g.5%, 2019h.8% .

Mark

Mark Magennis
Skillsoft | mobile: +353 87 60 60 162
Accessibility Specialist


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: 15 December 2019 01:47
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] heading question

Birkir's experience of user testing is exactly the same as mine during hundreds of sessions over 15 years. Even when people use headings to navigate through a page, they rarely take notice of the level. It tends to be the most highly proficient users who take note of the heading levels, so small errors in nesting don't cause them any difficulty.

That said, I think that errors in the heading structure should be limited to occasional skipped levels. That is often unavoidable when pages are built from common components in a CMS. However, it would not be acceptable for subheadings to have a higher level than their parent heading.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: 14 December 2019 23:43
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] heading question

The heading levels need to correspond to the visual weight of the text, which of course can be subjective (what if heading text is the same size but one has an underline or a different color).
Also, while levels are important I think there are sitautions where skipping heading levels is justified.
For instance, if you have a book, its title is an h1, then there is a dedication or author's note that contains a sentence or two of text, then there are individual chapters and sub chapters.
The text author's note should be a heading, but not necessary an h2, it does not mark a chapter in the book, an h3 or h4 is more appropriate and likely more in line with the visual presentation.
These are the exceptions and consecutive heading levels are good practice, but WCAG does not outright require them.
In recent usability testing with a number of screen reader users I've found that very few use heading levels or even pay attention to them much to my surprise. They do look for an h1 heading, but that's about it.



On 12/14/19, David Engebretson Jr. < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Howdy!
>
> Heading structure is one of my main topics in the general
> accessibility presentations I give.
>
> I always profess their should be 1 heading level 1 on a page (at the
> beginning of the main region) that matches the <title> of the page -
> then the sections of the page should be marked as heading level 2 with
> subsections at heading level 3 and sub-subsections at heading level 4.
>
> It's not difficult to provide semantic heading structure. It's
> difficult to create the awareness that it is important.
>
> I think the most difficult aspect, at least for me as a blind
> developer and a11y enthusiast, is to convince sighted developers that
> they can always adjust styling through CSS in a properly formatted
> digital document. CSS is simple but not all sighted folks know how to
> use it. I don't know how to use it either so I'm super empathetic. I
> can't tell if I'm causing text collisions with my styling adjustments.
>
> It's a bit of a conundrum, no?
>
> Best,
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> L Snider
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 12:51 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] heading question
>
> I differ from others, heading order is crucial for me.
>
> Everyone I know who relies on a screen reader (I don't rely on one)
> has told me this over the years. I know WCAG is different, but in my
> view it is a problem. Think of reading things every day with a screen
> reader, and not knowing what was going on, because the headings were
> totally out of whack.
> After all, I have to ask, why then do headings have numbers in the
> first place?
>
> I know others will disagree, but I don't call it petty at all.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 6:46 PM Tyler Shepard
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I am reviewing a website which has headings. The first heading is an
>> h1, the next is an h3. I feel a bit petty for putting in my notes
>> they should change the heading put it as an h2. It doesn't damage
>> the flow. Am I over reacting over something so small?
>> >> >> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist
>> .webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C44e
>> 13a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%
>> 7C0%7C637121014213137424&amp;sdata=1GDGVhNGevg6KnSzeRw%2FlvuuYvt7%2BB
>> 6sIfey7BrEeGA%3D&amp;reserved=0 List archives at
>> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweba
>> im.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40s
>> tate.mn.us%7C44e13a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b
>> 89c2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637121014213147417&amp;sdata=XzpQqHsFA7W5xJWEXS
>> c3x2MilvEeWmwNlb43V8NmUbc%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> >>
> > > https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.
> webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C44e13
> a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%7C0
> %7C637121014213147417&amp;sdata=vGYc6CsR5ns70Gg%2BGEb%2BvdJ7hiTFI4uKex
> T%2F2TbXDUs%3D&amp;reserved=0 List archives at
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> te.mn.us%7C44e13a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c
> 2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637121014213147417&amp;sdata=XzpQqHsFA7W5xJWEXSc3x2
> MilvEeWmwNlb43V8NmUbc%3D&amp;reserved=0
> >
> > > https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.
> webaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7Cdavid.b.andrews%40state.mn.us%7C44e13
> a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%7C0
> %7C637121014213147417&amp;sdata=vGYc6CsR5ns70Gg%2BGEb%2BvdJ7hiTFI4uKex
> T%2F2TbXDUs%3D&amp;reserved=0 List archives at
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> te.mn.us%7C44e13a20da8d4dec1a2708d7822fd22d%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c
> 2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637121014213147417&amp;sdata=XzpQqHsFA7W5xJWEXSc3x2
> MilvEeWmwNlb43V8NmUbc%3D&amp;reserved=0
> >


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