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Re: Empty <P> Tags For Spacing

for

From: Karen McCall
Date: Feb 8, 2022 10:23AM

I would agree. There is "something" in a <P> tag even if it is a "return that indicates the start of a new paragraph and its end.

I train people on how to leverage their software to add space around text that is just part of knowing how to use the software you are trying to use. Whether its Word or CSS in HTML, there are techniques for creating the visual presentation you want that don't involve pressing Spacebar, Tab or Enter.

And I'd like to add: can we PLEASE stop blaming the adaptive technology for EVERYING that doesn't work well! I know there are gaps in how my adaptive technology accesses some things. Its technology. NONE of it is perfect.

If we aren't going to "blame" content authors for creating poorly structured content, we can't "blame" the adaptive technology for trying to accommodate for poorly structured content.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Lars Ballieu Christensen
Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 9:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Empty <P> Tags For Spacing

In my opinion, use of p-elements to achieve a certain visual presentation is a WCAG 2.1 violation (1.3.1); p-elements are intended to define paragraphs.. As blank lines are not semantically paragraphs, such use represents incorrect markup of content.

Venligst/Kind regards

Lars
----
Lars Ballieu Christensen
Rådgiver/Adviser, Ph.D., M.Sc., Sensus ApS Specialister i tilgængelighed/Accessibility Consultants
Tel: +45 48 22 10 03 – Mobil: +45 40 32 68 23 - Skype: Ballieu
Mail: <EMAIL REMOVED> – Web: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sensus.dk%2F&amp;data%7C01%7C%7Cf718fbd261334fc1e2ec08d9eb1293cb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637799287299764273%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=hNypgrRMPpo0P7tmQOMSvoipKivroVtiq6mr9XImeq8%3D&amp;reserved=0

Vi arbejder for et tilgængeligt og rummeligt informationssamfund Working for an accessible and inclusive information society



On 08/02/2022, 15.01, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of Duff Johnson" < <EMAIL REMOVED> on behalf of <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> On Feb 8, 2022, at 01:05, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> I'm not convinced it's a WCAG non-conformance, and I'm not sure it's even a nuisance. Does it have any impact on anyone?

…and even if it does have an impact it seems like a AT problem, not a file-format issue.

> Empty <P> tags are a big problem in PDFs, though. They cause JAWS (and possibly other screen readers) to say "blank", which we regard as a user experience issue, not a WCAG non-conformance.

IMO, this is a description of what screen-readers are choosing to do… and they should choose otherwise. That a PDF might include an empty <P> does not force AT to present it.

> More importantly, if they occur in lists, they break the list structure, which definitely is a WCAG non-conformance. We see this a lot in PDFs created in Word and PowerPoint.

Yes; people use paragraphs within lists. It is for this reason that PDF 2.0 includes the concept of a “Continued list” to provide support for this very common use-case.

Duff.