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Re: Meaningful Sequende Question

for

From: Brooks Newton
Date: Dec 7, 2022 11:43AM

Hi Jeremy,

I appreciate your explanation of the role of ARIA markup. I guess that
works out pretty well for browser manufacturers not having to change any of
their wares' behavior based on its presence. How does that work for
developers and users with disabilities? Seems to me like this "not my
problem" approach puts it all back on content owners, who undoubtedly will
interpret what the right thing to do is a number of ways, including many
that don't support access.

Why not make aria-modal into a full-fledged HTML attribute or element
then? Why not handle something as fundamental as focus constraint in modal
content at more centralized source (user agents) for the benefit of
consistency and predictability? Can anyone provide a use case where a
content author marks up a container as modal, but doesn't want focus to be
constrained to that container, unless the user affirmative takes action to
dismiss the modal? If you can think of a case like this, wouldn't that be
the exception and not the rule?

Brooks

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:36 PM Jeremy Echols < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> And bear in mind this is about how assistive technologies handle the
> attribute, not the user agent. So if assistive tech imposes a limit which
> the unmodified browser doesn't, things can get pretty hairy.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Jeremy Echols
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:34
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Meaningful Sequende Question
>
> Correct, because it's not up to the assistive technologies to decide how
> the app should work. The devs need to ensure modals are built right
> (preferably using the "dialog" element or a polyfill). Assistive
> technologies can choose to limit navigation if they want, but that can
> break sites where devs are incorrectly using aria attributes. Which,
> unfortunately, is quite common.
>
> The correct pattern for a developer *implementing* a modal will not be the
> same as the requirements of how assistive technologies handle the attribute.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Steve Green
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 10:29
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Meaningful Sequende Question
>
> MDN aren't the authoritative source, but I assume they have close ties
> with the Chrome developers, so they should be better informed than most.
>
> The definitive source is
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/*aria-modal__;Iw!!C5qS4YX3!GuMVNHSBkaEzbZLo8QJI70NOcXPxC99Q7gSHSdnKF-fzWP6r5bTY3RZGxVLJGcCkiF88dM_unt4Lx6H3XN-Mnbjrinv5nw$
> , which says "Assistive technologies MAY limit navigation to the modal
> element's contents." It doesn't even say SHOULD, let alone MUST, so I
> expect there is little chance that this will be implemented by enough
> browsers that authors can rely on it.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Brooks Newton
> Sent: 07 December 2022 17:50
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Meaningful Sequende Question
>
> Thanks for that, Steve. Seems like a missed opportunity to empower user
> agents to take on some of the "heavy lifting" developers have to do to
> make content accessible. Is MDN the authoritative source for questions
> about how markup should work in user agents? Anyone from MDN on this
> thread?
>
> Brooks
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM Steve Green <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > According to the MDN website, the aria-modal="true" attribute is not
> > supposed to do that. They say "Setting aria-modal="true" on dialog and
> > alertdialog role containers indicates the presence of a "modal"
> > element to users of assistive technology, but does not actually make
> > the element modal. The features that make the element actually modal
> > must be implemented by the developer."
> >
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/W
> > eb/Accessibility/ARIA/Attrib__;!!C5qS4YX3!GuMVNHSBkaEzbZLo8QJI70NOcXPx
> > C99Q7gSHSdnKF-fzWP6r5bTY3RZGxVLJGcCkiF88dM_unt4Lx6H3XN-MnbgZZ2ybMA$
> > utes/aria-modal
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> > Brooks Newton
> > Sent: 07 December 2022 17:28
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Meaningful Sequende Question
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Does anyone have a list of browsers and versions that correctly parse
> > aria-modal="true" so that the user's Tab sequence is properly
> > constrained within the container marked up with aria-modal="true" with
> > no additional custom focus management?
> >
> > The reason why I ask has everything to do with user outcomes. I
> > understand that SC 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence in WCAG 2.x is passed if
> > the Tab sequence "can be programmatically determined." But just
> > because it "can" doesn't mean that the proper Tab sequence "will" be
> > set if the browser/user agent doesn't render the modal content using
> > the content author's intended interaction pattern.
> >
> > Do content authors have any assurance that if they use the right page
> > code to pass SC 1.3.2 the Tab sequence will achieve an accessible
> > result for users with disabilities who use a keyboard or similar input
> approach?
> >
> > Brooks
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 7:22 PM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> > > If the content is visually presented as a dialog, it should have a
> > > dialog role. If it doesn't I'd fail it under WCAG 4.1.2 for not
> > > presenting its role.
> > > Also, if it isn't a dialog, what happens when you press tab with
> > > focus on the last interactive element in the dialog, where does the
> > > focus end up? Based on that it's possible that I might fail it under
> > > 2.4.3, but failing it under 1.3.2 would be a bit creative.
> > > I think there's a 95%+ chance the content is visually presented a a
> > > dialog/overlay/popover, what have you, and then it needs the dialog
> > > role (+ accessible name and aria-modal="true" if it is modal) for a
> > > screen reader user.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/6/22, Jim Homme < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > In the page under consideration, there is a link. When the user
> > > > clicks
> > > the
> > > > link, content appears. Focus jumps to the content. In the HTML
> > > > order, though, the content is below the footer of the page. When
> > > > the user hits a Close button, focus jumps back to the link the
> > > > user
> > originally clicked.
> > > The
> > > > content below the page footer disappears. Question: would you fail
> > > > the content below the page footer for logical reading order?
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
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