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RE: FW: Adding a label to search box

for

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Apr 18, 2006 11:00AM

OK this probably is more open ended a question than I should ask, but:
Why do people feel the need to have an edit box for searching without
associate textual visible cues? Are we really that mature of a user
base now that it's so obvious? I know screen real estate is at a
premium when talking with the nontechnical web folks, but really, when
putting up edit boxes isn't visible descriptive text sort of the
foundation for readability? This seems like kind of the everybody knows
what is going on kind of thing, so nobody has to ask--yeah accept the
ones who don't.

Also, (I know IBM would have to answer this), why would IBM feel the
need to use over complicated invisible or transparent image and alt tag
to get the job done when label or title work perfectly fine. Besides,
doesn't using such a method open up potential for invalid page rendering
in some environments. Seems like a blending of the display layer with
the business logic layer somehow. I suppose not blending of display and
logic, but something seems like it is getting blended mixing an
interface elements attributes explicitly with the visual appearance
only.

These discussions are taking place a lot lately, not just on this list,
and it's nice to see that the concepts of making information and data
accessible for people with various disabilities is maturing to reflect
that fact that web accessibility is really for more than the visually
impaired. this has taken some time to sink in, even to those of us in
the business, but i think it really is getting there lately.


Allen Hoffman



________________________________

From: Becky Tindle [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 2:54 PM
To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List; <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: FW: [WebAIM] Adding a label to search box


Hi,

I am unsure what exactly you mean by 'onscreen text' when talking about
recent threads of accessibility. I am UK based - maybe this is why I'm
unfamiliar with this term in this context - could you explain what you
mean when talking about assistive technologies and web sites?

Many thanks,

Becky Tindle

Jim Thatcher < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

Hi Larry,

Larry Hull:
>Accessibility checking tools will for the most part fail a page
if
>the label element isn't used for a search box.

I am not sure what "for the most part" means. I tested 6
commercial tools and three passed the page when the form control had a
title attribute instead of the label. Those that passed were InFocus,
Ramp, and WebKing. Those that failed were Bobby, The Lift Machine and
WebXM. There will be more about these tests on my site shortly.

So half the tools I looked at failed the page if the title was
used instead of the label. I hope and believe that will change in the
near future.

IBM uses an invisible image with alt="search for:" enclosed in
the label element; it is my understanding they use this technique
instead of title for just the reason you state.


Larry Hull:
> some sophisticated accessibility checking tools still fail the

> page because the label is empty, i.e., doesn't contain
explicit
> on-screen text

In my tests all 6 tools passed the page if the label element
contained an image with non-empty alt-text. So which "sophisticated
tools" are you talking about? I would like to include them at some later
time.

Jim

Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931
-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 9:32 AM
To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Adding a label to search box

Jim,

For a maintenance standpoint, I agree with you.

However....

Accessibility checking tools will for the most part fail a page
if the label element isn't used for a search box. In my experience, this
tends to confuse people who are just trying to do the "right thing" when
it comes to accessibility.

Recently I've been seeing a number of examples of a search box
with no on-screen text. An image with a picture of the word "Search" and
alt text for the image that reads "Search" is used.

In many of these examples, a label element often encloses the
image, IMHO because many accessibility checking tools will otherwise
fail the page.

A brief digression: some sophisticated accessibility checking
tools still fail the page because the label is empty, i.e., doesn't
contain explicit on-screen text.

Whether or not an empty label is used, the alt text is read in
this case and I don't believe a title attribute is needed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,

Larry Hull

In a message dated 4/15/2006 10:47:38 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time, <EMAIL REMOVED> writes:

> if I used label for and the title attribute on a form,
> would a person using speech hear the same text twice?

Remember that more is not better. You won't hear the
information twice, but
it is not predictable which a given screen reader will
announce. So for
maintenance reasons use label when on-screen text is
available, title when
it is not and don't use both!

Jim

Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931








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