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Thread: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)
From: James Bailey
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 4:15PM
Subject: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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At the workshop in Logan a few weeks back (it was really good, by the way) we discussed ways around tabbing through the multiple links presented by drop-down menus. We discussed the code for separating keyboard from mouse actions, but I mislaid it. The idea is to tab to the top visible link and then go to a page that has the same options as the drop down, but when the mouse is over top link, the menu drops. Any suggestions and any examples out there to view? Jared – Thanks for a great workshop!
Thanks,
James
--
James Bailey
Adaptive Technology Access Adviser, University of Oregon
1501 Kincaid St.
Eugene, OR 97403-1299
Office: 541-346-1076
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 4:42PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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From: "James Bailey" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> At the workshop in Logan a few weeks back (it was really good, by the way) we discussed ways around tabbing through the multiple
> links presented by drop-down menus. We discussed the code for separating keyboard from mouse actions, but I mislaid it. The idea
> is to tab to the top visible link and then go to a page that has the same options as the drop down, but when the mouse is over top
> link, the menu drops. Any suggestions and any examples out there to view? Jared – Thanks for a great workshop!
This is one way-
http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm2/ug-examples/accessible/index.htm
It's based on one of our Dreamweaver plug-ins, but the same concept would apply to any menu system. do note that there are many
other opinions about how to make this kind of menu accessible, including not having one at all ;-)
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 4:57PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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James-
It was great having you in town for the web accessibility training.
Thanks for your compliments.
In general, the approach we recommended was 'hiding' the drop-down
menus directly from keyboard (and thus screen reader) users. The
sub-navigation links would be hidden with CSS so as to not be
navigated to or read by a screen reader (e.g., display:none in CSS or
not part of the page at all until generated on-demand by scripting).
The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
items with onmouseover only. Because this event is not triggered by
the keyboard, the menu would not appear unless you're using a mouse.
The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
HTML, plus optimally some additional content that is relevant (it
doesn't have to be just a plain list of links).
This approach ensures keyboard accessibility and allows full
functionality without requiring javascript. It also allows all menu
items to be indexed and read by search engines.
The link Al posted models this very well, though I find it a bit odd
that the main menu item and the first sub-navigation item go to the
same page, but that's not really relevant to this discussion.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: deblist
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 5:18PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Jared Smith wrote:
> The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
> items with onmouseover only. ...
> The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
> secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
> HTML,
Not to reignite the argument that happened the last time this
topic came up, but I just wanted to state that this is not a
universally accepted idea. In the open source project I
contribute to, the consensus among keyboard and screen reader
users is that ARIA-enabled menus are far more usable for us than
secondary page links alone. Which solution is right for your user
community depends on knowing the use patterns of your user
community.
-deborah
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 5:24PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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Are you saying that only people who use a mouse can access the whole
list while screen readers and keyboard users have to take extra
measures to access the same list/pages?
cheers
Geof
AIn general, the approach we recommended was 'hiding' the drop-down
>menus directly from keyboard (and thus screen reader) users. The
>sub-navigation links would be hidden with CSS so as to not be
>navigated to or read by a screen reader (e.g., display:none in CSS or
>not part of the page at all until generated on-demand by scripting).
>The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
>items with onmouseover only. Because this event is not triggered by
>the keyboard, the menu would not appear unless you're using a mouse.
>The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
>secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
>HTML, plus optimally some additional content that is relevant (it
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 5:33PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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It seems to me this is 2 tier accessibility.
cheers
Geof
At 06:18 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Jared Smith wrote:
> > The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
> > items with onmouseover only. ...
> > The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
> > secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
> > HTML,
>
>Not to reignite the argument that happened the last time this
>topic came up, but I just wanted to state that this is not a
>universally accepted idea. In the open source project I
>contribute to, the consensus among keyboard and screen reader
>users is that ARIA-enabled menus are far more usable for us than
>secondary page links alone. Which solution is right for your user
>community depends on knowing the use patterns of your user
>community.
>
>-deborah
>
>
>
From: Birkir Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 5:39PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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So if one added an item to the drop down list, one wuld have to add a link
elsewhere for accessibility, correct?
I am always skeptical about a project that requires a non obvious specific
action for accessibility. It is so easy to add an item to a menu but forget
to add a link to it on a different page, in which case you now have a
limited access to screen reader users.
I guess that is what Geoff means by Two Beer accessibility, but it is worse
in a sense, since it could easily turn into partial accessibility.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 5:57PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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It's like telling a wheelchair user that the building is accessible,
they just have to come in through the back door.
44 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
>So if one added an item to the drop down list, one wuld have to add a link
>elsewhere for accessibility, correct?
>I am always skeptical about a project that requires a non obvious specific
>action for accessibility. It is so easy to add an item to a menu but forget
>to add a link to it on a different page, in which case you now have a
>limited access to screen reader users.
>I guess that is what Geoff means by Two Beer accessibility, but it is worse
>in a sense, since it could easily turn into partial accessibility.
>
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 6:24PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Jared Smith wrote:
>> The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
>> items with onmouseover only. ...
>> The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
>> secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
>> HTML,
>
> Not to reignite the argument that happened the last time this
> topic came up,
It takes at least 2 to argue :-)
- but I just wanted to state that this is not a
> universally accepted idea.
I agree and I think I stated that pretty clearly in my post (though you are not responding directly to my post).
- In the open source project I
> contribute to, the consensus among keyboard and screen reader
> users is that ARIA-enabled menus are far more usable for us than
> secondary page links alone.
Our testing indicates that creating a page that works for the disabled as if the sub-menus did not even exist always wins out.
Perhaps this kind of testing always has a "power of suggestion" element to it - or perhaps our testers are anomalous.
> Which solution is right for your user
> community depends on knowing the use patterns of your user
> community.
Not clear on that, but it sounds really smart :-)
Seriously, ARIA is very nice for certain types of applications, but our testing clearly indicates that most un-coached testers do
not understand what is going on. It's a definite departure from the norm.
But, hey, if it works for you and your user community then it's a good strategy.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 6:42PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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On 2010-03-05, at 6:18 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Jared Smith wrote:
>> The main navigation item would trigger the display of the sub-menu
>> items with onmouseover only. ...
>> The main menu item would also be a standard, accessible link to a
>> secondary page that provides the sub-navigation links in standard
>> HTML,
>
> Not to reignite the argument that happened the last time this
> topic came up, but I just wanted to state that this is not a
> universally accepted idea. In the open source project I
> contribute to, the consensus among keyboard and screen reader
> users is that ARIA-enabled menus are far more usable for us than
> secondary page links alone. Which solution is right for your user
> community depends on knowing the use patterns of your user
> community.
>
* Deborah, I would hope that nobody would argue about using new technology to enhance a reasonably robust solution as described by Jared. I infer from your post that along with offering an ARIA based solution that you still implement something similar to what Jared has described and that the ARIA solution doesn't make the page less accessible for users of technology that does not fully support ARIA, is this correct?
Thanks,
Everett
From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 6:45PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> Not to reignite the argument that happened the last time this
> topic came up, but I just wanted to state that this is not a
> universally accepted idea. In the open source project I
> contribute to, the consensus among keyboard and screen reader
> users is that ARIA-enabled menus are far more usable for us than
> secondary page links alone. Which solution is right for your user
> community depends on knowing the use patterns of your user
> community.
Hi Deborah,
Just curious to know how many people provided this feedback to you. A
panel of 5 experienced users will generally always return back that kind
of answer, but a panel of 5,000 users of various ability and set-top
configurations might not. I love ARIA, and it *will* solve a lot of
problems, but we still have no guarantee that ARIA techniques will work
for all users - it's a browser (and version) dependant solution still.
(DEATH to IE 6!!)
Cheers!
JF
From: deblist
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 7:39PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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E.J. Zufelt wrote:
> * Deborah, I would hope that nobody would argue about using new technology to enhance a reasonably robust solution as described by Jared. I infer from your post that along with offering an ARIA based solution that you still implement something similar to what Jared has described and that the ARIA solution doesn't make the page less accessible for users of technology that does not fully support ARIA, is this correct?
Right. Selecting the top link of our drop-down menus will still
take you to a secondary page containing all the links. (Which of
course offers the risk mentioned earlier in this thread, of the
links in the drop-down and the links on the destination page
getting out of sync. I have seen that happen, and it's incredibly
frustrating; we do our best to avoid it.)
However, we also make sure that all of our drop-down menus are
accessible via keyboard, so that screen reader and keyboard-only
users can access them if they so choose, and if they have
technology that allows it. This satisfies our user community.
-deborah
From: deblist
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 7:48PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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John Foliot wrote:
> Just curious to know how many people provided this feedback to you. A
> panel of 5 experienced users will generally always return back that kind
> of answer, but a panel of 5,000 users of various ability and set-top
> configurations might not.
I cannot give you numbers, but I can tell you that the users with
disabilities who provide us with feedback range from programmers
to novice computer users. Some are blind or low vision, some are
keyboard-only, some are voice control, some have visual
processing disorders, some have cognitive impairments.
What we have found is that our users are either prefer the
flexibility of being able to access drop-down menus, or don't
even notice the drop down menus. Nobody who has given us feedback
has been bothered by them.
Again, this is true of our user base, and is presumably not true
of every other user community. But that's true of all
accessibility programming: as WebAIM says, "there is no typical
screen reader user". Therefore, you program for the needs of your
user community.
-deborah
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 7:51PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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That would be the kind of drop down menu I would expect, one accessible to all.
From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 7:57PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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On 2010-03-05, at 8:40 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> E.J. Zufelt wrote:
>> * Deborah, I would hope that nobody would argue about using new technology to enhance a reasonably robust solution as described by Jared. I infer from your post that along with offering an ARIA based solution that you still implement something similar to what Jared has described and that the ARIA solution doesn't make the page less accessible for users of technology that does not fully support ARIA, is this correct?
>
> Right. Selecting the top link of our drop-down menus will still
> take you to a secondary page containing all the links. (Which of
> course offers the risk mentioned earlier in this thread, of the
> links in the drop-down and the links on the destination page
> getting out of sync. I have seen that happen, and it's incredibly
> frustrating; we do our best to avoid it.)
* A comment on the issue of drop down and secondary menus getting out of synch. This problem can be avoided if using a content management system, or equivalent technology, that supports a menu system. As an example, Drupal has a menu system that can be administered by the site administrators. The administrator could setup a menu for "Products" and design a theme that would have that menu appear both as the drop down for the Products menu item and as the secondary menu on the Products page. This means that the menu will only need to be updated once for multiple uses.
Thanks again,
Everett
From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 8:12PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Geof Collis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Are you saying that only people who use a mouse can access the whole
> list while screen readers and keyboard users have to take extra
> measures to access the same list/pages?
If by "extra measures" you mean clicking a link, then yes. The
content, links, and overall functionality aren't any different - they
are just presented in slightly different places.
This is just one of several possible approaches (which have been
hashed about on this list several times). This approach does take one
additional step, but my experience has shown that this extra step is
often much less burdensome than the alternatives - either forcing the
user to listen to *every* navigation item (and probably without any
structure or semantics as to the hierarchy) or coming up with some
distinct mechanism of providing keyboard navigation through the menu
(which keys open the menu, which expand and collapse menus, etc. -
there's no standard for these things).
Plus it provides additional functionality for those without javascript
or ARIA-supported technologies, search engines, or those who just
happen to click the main menu item perhaps without noticing the
drop-down menu.
If ARIA can be adequately used to provide navigation through such a
menu, this would be a wonderful way to enhance a standard, accessible
navigation, but I wouldn't yet recommend having ARIA support be a
requirement for something as critical as a main navigation.
> It's like telling a wheelchair user that the building is accessible,
> they just have to come in through the back door.
No, it's like providing a ramp, an escalator, and an elevator. The
user can use the means of getting there that works best for them. Not
providing a fallback would be like forcing a wheelchair user to use
the escalator. The key is to get to the users to the same place - they
just can choose to get there slightly differently. I personally tend
to click main menu items when I see drop-down menus as I prefer
navigating static content over playing the "mouse through the menu
maze" game.
Jared
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 8:27PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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Then put the ramp at the front of the building so we all have equal
access, Debbie has the right idea.
You say its just one click but if you have 20 sub menus then that is
20 clicks, not 1.
cheers
Geof
At 09:13 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Geof Collis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Are you saying that only people who use a mouse can access the whole
> > list while screen readers and keyboard users have to take extra
> > measures to access the same list/pages?
>
>If by "extra measures" you mean clicking a link, then yes. The
>content, links, and overall functionality aren't any different - they
>are just presented in slightly different places.
>
>This is just one of several possible approaches (which have been
>hashed about on this list several times). This approach does take one
>additional step, but my experience has shown that this extra step is
>often much less burdensome than the alternatives - either forcing the
>user to listen to *every* navigation item (and probably without any
>structure or semantics as to the hierarchy) or coming up with some
>distinct mechanism of providing keyboard navigation through the menu
>(which keys open the menu, which expand and collapse menus, etc. -
>there's no standard for these things).
>
>Plus it provides additional functionality for those without javascript
>or ARIA-supported technologies, search engines, or those who just
>happen to click the main menu item perhaps without noticing the
>drop-down menu.
>
>If ARIA can be adequately used to provide navigation through such a
>menu, this would be a wonderful way to enhance a standard, accessible
>navigation, but I wouldn't yet recommend having ARIA support be a
>requirement for something as critical as a main navigation.
>
> > It's like telling a wheelchair user that the building is accessible,
> > they just have to come in through the back door.
>
>No, it's like providing a ramp, an escalator, and an elevator. The
>user can use the means of getting there that works best for them. Not
>providing a fallback would be like forcing a wheelchair user to use
>the escalator. The key is to get to the users to the same place - they
>just can choose to get there slightly differently. I personally tend
>to click main menu items when I see drop-down menus as I prefer
>navigating static content over playing the "mouse through the menu
>maze" game.
>
>Jared
>
From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 8:36PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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Good evening Geof,
My question to you is, can you please explain how you solve the problem of displaying sub-menus on the sites that you develop, or in the open source tools to which you are a contributor? Can you please explain the pros and cons of the approach you take as they relate to universal design and accessibility? In your response can you please explain how you solve the problem of assistive technology and keyboard only users needing to navigate through multiple sub-menus full of links on the main page, and any subsequent pages, of these sites and tools?
Thanks,
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca
Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt
View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
On 2010-03-05, at 9:26 PM, Geof Collis wrote:
> Then put the ramp at the front of the building so we all have equal
> access, Debbie has the right idea.
>
> You say its just one click but if you have 20 sub menus then that is
> 20 clicks, not 1.
>
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
> At 09:13 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Geof Collis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Are you saying that only people who use a mouse can access the whole
>>> list while screen readers and keyboard users have to take extra
>>> measures to access the same list/pages?
>>
>> If by "extra measures" you mean clicking a link, then yes. The
>> content, links, and overall functionality aren't any different - they
>> are just presented in slightly different places.
>>
>> This is just one of several possible approaches (which have been
>> hashed about on this list several times). This approach does take one
>> additional step, but my experience has shown that this extra step is
>> often much less burdensome than the alternatives - either forcing the
>> user to listen to *every* navigation item (and probably without any
>> structure or semantics as to the hierarchy) or coming up with some
>> distinct mechanism of providing keyboard navigation through the menu
>> (which keys open the menu, which expand and collapse menus, etc. -
>> there's no standard for these things).
>>
>> Plus it provides additional functionality for those without javascript
>> or ARIA-supported technologies, search engines, or those who just
>> happen to click the main menu item perhaps without noticing the
>> drop-down menu.
>>
>> If ARIA can be adequately used to provide navigation through such a
>> menu, this would be a wonderful way to enhance a standard, accessible
>> navigation, but I wouldn't yet recommend having ARIA support be a
>> requirement for something as critical as a main navigation.
>>
>>> It's like telling a wheelchair user that the building is accessible,
>>> they just have to come in through the back door.
>>
>> No, it's like providing a ramp, an escalator, and an elevator. The
>> user can use the means of getting there that works best for them. Not
>> providing a fallback would be like forcing a wheelchair user to use
>> the escalator. The key is to get to the users to the same place - they
>> just can choose to get there slightly differently. I personally tend
>> to click main menu items when I see drop-down menus as I prefer
>> navigating static content over playing the "mouse through the menu
>> maze" game.
>>
>> Jared
>>
From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 8:48PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Geof Collis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Then put the ramp at the front of the building so we all have equal
> access, Debbie has the right idea.
>
> You say its just one click but if you have 20 sub menus then that is
> 20 clicks, not 1.
I'm not saying that Deborah's approach is wrong or that it can't also
be implemented. Providing redundant access to the menu items ensures
accessibility and usability if any other approach fails. It's not an
either/or. Make the navigation menu accessible without javascript,
ARIA, or anything else the user might need. Then supplement that basic
accessibility with a fancy flyout menu and javascript and ARIA and
whatever if you'd like.
I've yet to see a complex drop-down menu that is friendly, intuitive
for all users, and also fully accessible. If anybody knows of one that
just plain works, I'd love to see it. Perhaps there is one - I've just
yet to see it. In the meantime, why not provide a mechanism that is
known to work wonderfully for everyone?
Jared
From: Geof Collis
Date: Fri, Mar 05 2010 9:00PM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
← Previous message | Next message →
Do you want it on your desk by the morning?
At 09:35 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
>Good evening Geof,
>
>My question to you is, can you please explain how you solve the
>problem of displaying sub-menus on the sites that you develop, or in
>the open source tools to which you are a contributor? Can you
>please explain the pros and cons of the approach you take as they
>relate to universal design and accessibility? In your response can
>you please explain how you solve the problem of assistive technology
>and keyboard only users needing to navigate through multiple
>sub-menus full of links on the main page, and any subsequent pages,
>of these sites and tools?
>
>Thanks,
>Everett Zufelt
>http://zufelt.ca
>
>Follow me on Twitter
>http://twitter.com/ezufelt
>
>View my LinkedIn Profile
>http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
>
>
>
>On 2010-03-05, at 9:26 PM, Geof Collis wrote:
>
> > Then put the ramp at the front of the building so we all have equal
> > access, Debbie has the right idea.
> >
> > You say its just one click but if you have 20 sub menus then that is
> > 20 clicks, not 1.
> >
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Geof
> > At 09:13 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote:
> >> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Geof Collis < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>> Are you saying that only people who use a mouse can access the whole
> >>> list while screen readers and keyboard users have to take extra
> >>> measures to access the same list/pages?
> >>
> >> If by "extra measures" you mean clicking a link, then yes. The
> >> content, links, and overall functionality aren't any different - they
> >> are just presented in slightly different places.
> >>
> >> This is just one of several possible approaches (which have been
> >> hashed about on this list several times). This approach does take one
> >> additional step, but my experience has shown that this extra step is
> >> often much less burdensome than the alternatives - either forcing the
> >> user to listen to *every* navigation item (and probably without any
> >> structure or semantics as to the hierarchy) or coming up with some
> >> distinct mechanism of providing keyboard navigation through the menu
> >> (which keys open the menu, which expand and collapse menus, etc. -
> >> there's no standard for these things).
> >>
> >> Plus it provides additional functionality for those without javascript
> >> or ARIA-supported technologies, search engines, or those who just
> >> happen to click the main menu item perhaps without noticing the
> >> drop-down menu.
> >>
> >> If ARIA can be adequately used to provide navigation through such a
> >> menu, this would be a wonderful way to enhance a standard, accessible
> >> navigation, but I wouldn't yet recommend having ARIA support be a
> >> requirement for something as critical as a main navigation.
> >>
> >>> It's like telling a wheelchair user that the building is accessible,
> >>> they just have to come in through the back door.
> >>
> >> No, it's like providing a ramp, an escalator, and an elevator. The
> >> user can use the means of getting there that works best for them. Not
> >> providing a fallback would be like forcing a wheelchair user to use
> >> the escalator. The key is to get to the users to the same place - they
> >> just can choose to get there slightly differently. I personally tend
> >> to click main menu items when I see drop-down menus as I prefer
> >> navigating static content over playing the "mouse through the menu
> >> maze" game.
> >>
> >> Jared
> >>
From: ckrugman
Date: Sat, Mar 06 2010 12:00AM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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as a screen reader user I want to make the choices of what I access on a
page and not have parts that are inacessible or marginally accessible.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] avoiding tabbing through drop downs
> John Foliot wrote:
>
>> Just curious to know how many people provided this feedback to you. A
>> panel of 5 experienced users will generally always return back that kind
>> of answer, but a panel of 5,000 users of various ability and set-top
>> configurations might not.
>
> I cannot give you numbers, but I can tell you that the users with
> disabilities who provide us with feedback range from programmers
> to novice computer users. Some are blind or low vision, some are
> keyboard-only, some are voice control, some have visual
> processing disorders, some have cognitive impairments.
>
> What we have found is that our users are either prefer the
> flexibility of being able to access drop-down menus, or don't
> even notice the drop down menus. Nobody who has given us feedback
> has been bothered by them.
>
> Again, this is true of our user base, and is presumably not true
> of every other user community. But that's true of all
> accessibility programming: as WebAIM says, "there is no typical
> screen reader user". Therefore, you program for the needs of your
> user community.
>
> -deborah
>
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Sat, Mar 06 2010 3:54AM
Subject: Re: avoiding tabbing through drop downs
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> I've yet to see a complex drop-down menu that is friendly, intuitive
> for all users, and also fully accessible. If anybody knows of one that
> just plain works, I'd love to see it. Perhaps there is one - I've just
> yet to see it. In the meantime, why not provide a mechanism that is
> known to work wonderfully for everyone?
>
>
Most problems with massive navigation are Information Architecture
issues and not solvable on a pure technical level. As we moved away from
thinking about content and have a tech fetish instead and misinterpret
"3 click rules" we run in circles with our arguments.