E-mail List Archives
Thread: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Steffi Rausch
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 8:58AM
Subject: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
No previous message | Next message →
Does anyone know if I a printable version of a pdf form is enough for
accessibility purposes? Maybe it is a stupid question but I have a state
site that needs to make their site accessible which I assume would mean all
their forms as well - which is a lot. So in my price quote I need to
incorporate this if needed and it will be a lot of money that I have verify
reasons for. How do accessible people deal with printed forms? Do they have
someone else fill it out? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Steffi Rausch
RESI, Jr. Web Developer
410-704-2063
"Design is intelligence made visible." - Rick Eiber
---
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Paul Bohman
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 9:33AM
Subject: RE: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
← Previous message | Next message →
--For those with visual disabilities:
PDF forms can be made accessible to a certain percentage of the blind
population. Two brands of screen readers, JAWS and Window Eyes offer a
reasonable amount of support to PDF files. However, not everyone who is
blind uses these technologies, and not everyone who uses these
technologies has the latest version of them. Only the more recent
versions support PDF in any meaningful way. The other side of this is
that PDF is a relative newcomer to accessibility. Not all of the issues
have been worked out. If you have a complex form, and my guess is that
you probably do, the form may be very difficult to comprehend inside of
PDF. Screen readers have a difficult time making sense of complex
layouts in PDF, often to the point of rendering the content unusable. If
you have "simple", linear forms, you could probably make them accessible
using PDF, at least to those with the latest versions of JAWS and Window
Eyes.
HTML forms can be made very accessible to screen readers, and can be
used by those with low vision who magnify the screen. If you use the
proper markup, and if you design the form intelligently, you can make
pretty much any form accessible. (See www.webaim.org/howto/forms). This
assumes that the forms you are talking about can be submitted over the
Internet. If they cannot (e.g. if electronic submissions are not allowed
by your client), then someone else will have to fill out the form for
the person with the visual disability. This is *not* a recommended
approach. You might get into legal trouble this way.
The *best* approach for this group would be to offer the forms in HTML,
allowing the users to submit them via the Internet. If you need to have
forms that print well, you could *also* provide PDF files (not instead
of HTML).
--For those with motor impairments (and others):
You must make sure that the forms are accessible without a mouse
(whether in HTML, PDF, Flash, or whatever--some people are unable to use
a mouse, no matter what technology the developer uses). You must be able
to tab through the form in a logical order.
Make the forms error-tolerant. If someone accidentally submits the form
too soon, there must be a way to go back and fix the error.
For this group, HTML is usually better too, because of the greater
amount of navigational control, though PDF can also work here. For this
group, you don't have to worry as much about intermediate technologies
(e.g. screen readers) because most users are accessing the content
directly through their browser. The intermediate technologies that *are*
used are generally hardware devices such as adaptive keyboards,
specialized mice, and so on, which you don't have to worry about as
much, except to make sure that the content is keyboard-accessible.
--And in general:
Make the form as easy to understand as possible.
--So my conclusion is that you can use PDF if you want to, but you have
to do it well (see http://www.webaim.org/howto/acrobat), and, in all
honesty, you ought to provide an HTML version as well. You can make
accessible PDF files, but it won't reach everyone, due to the fact that
not everyone has the appropriate technologies to access them.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
From: Mark Rew
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 9:55AM
Subject: Re: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Steffi,
As a totally blind person, I find a printed version of any type of form
unaccessible. PDF forms are mostly accessible if they are designed with the
make accessible tool, and are marked up properly. I would encourage either
investing time, money, and effort into making the PDF accessible, or
generating html 4.01 without frames compliant forms.
Mark Rew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steffi Rausch" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:47 AM
Subject: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
> Does anyone know if I a printable version of a pdf form is enough for
> accessibility purposes? Maybe it is a stupid question but I have a state
> site that needs to make their site accessible which I assume would mean all
> their forms as well - which is a lot. So in my price quote I need to
> incorporate this if needed and it will be a lot of money that I have verify
> reasons for. How do accessible people deal with printed forms? Do they have
> someone else fill it out? Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>
> Steffi Rausch
> RESI, Jr. Web Developer
> 410-704-2063
>
> "Design is intelligence made visible." - Rick Eiber
>
>
>
> ---
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 10:02AM
Subject: RE: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
← Previous message | Next message →
I have a friend who works for the Canadian Passport Office. They are
working on a system whereby the user fills out an HTML form to apply for a
passport. Unfortunately, there are very strict requirements for this form,
including the fact that it MUST be signed and submitted in person by the
requestee.
She tells me of a server application which accepts HTML form imput and
outputs it to a PDF file on the fly. It also accepts the imputs and loads
them to a db. Finally, it also creates (or I think they are working on
this - so maybe "will create") a barcode imprint as part of the pdf file.
1) User imputs all information in standard HTML form (accessible? - yes!)
2) Submits form, where it is verified for completeness (server side
validation- accessible? yes!) and outputted as HTML for client verification
as well.
3) If client is happy, second submit creates PDF on the fly with
pre-populated fields for output to printer, signature and submission in
person (accessible? - some issues, ie, access to printer, mobility
impairments, lack of access to "in person" submission, etc.) as well as
loads to db. With the creation of the barcode linked to the db, when
presented at the Passport office the intent is to scan the document and thus
follow through with the submission process electronically (no need to
re-input form information at office).
That's all I know, but it warrants further investigation (note to self -
investigate further). Anybody else hear anything about this? I guess check
Adobe first...
Good Luck
JF
>
From: Kathleen Anderson
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 10:36AM
Subject: Accessible Flash sites
← Previous message | Next message →
Does anyone have an example or two of accessible Flash sites?
Thank you,
Kathleen Anderson, Chair
State of Connecticut
CMAC Web Site Accessibility Committee
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
phone: (860) 702-3355
URL: http://www.cmac.state.ct.us/access/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Bob Gattis
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 2:51PM
Subject: RE: Accessible Flash sites
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi,
Macromedia claimed in an accessibility seminar in Denver last week that
the PBS American Experience site called "Zoot Suit Culture" at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/zoot/eng_sfeature/sf_zoot.html
has an accessible Flash MX version. When I ran it, there were
synchronized captions with the audio, unlike the Flash version (also on
the site) which had static text. You might check it out.
Best wishes,
Bob
Bob Gattis
Meeting the Challenge, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Office: 719-578-8448
Cell #: 719-310-9658
Fax # : 719-444-0269
>
From: Tom Gilder
Date: Fri, Jun 07 2002 3:32PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Flash sites
← Previous message | Next message →
On Friday, June 7, 2002, 10:46:43 PM, you wrote:
> Macromedia claimed in an accessibility seminar in Denver last week that
> the PBS American Experience site called "Zoot Suit Culture" at:
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/zoot/eng_sfeature/sf_zoot.html
> has an accessible Flash MX version.
The "accessible" Flash version that will only open if scripting is enabled..?
Hmmm...
--
Tom Gilder
http://tom.me.uk/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat, Jun 08 2002 4:10PM
Subject: Re: Accessible Flash sites
← Previous message | Next message →
I agree that the pop up is an accessibility issue, but if you want to test
the accessibility of the Flash content, try this link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/zoot/eng_sfeature/mx/pop_zoot_mx.html
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
> On Friday, June 7, 2002, 10:46:43 PM, you wrote:
> > Macromedia claimed in an accessibility seminar in Denver last week that
> > the PBS American Experience site called "Zoot Suit Culture" at:
> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/zoot/eng_sfeature/sf_zoot.html
> > has an accessible Flash MX version.
>
> The "accessible" Flash version that will only open if scripting is
enabled..?
> Hmmm...
>
> --
> Tom Gilder
> http://tom.me.uk/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Holly Marie
Date: Wed, Jun 26 2002 4:24AM
Subject: Re: pdf forms for print or html forms for web use?
← Previous message | No next message
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steffi Rausch" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
| Does anyone know if I a printable version of a pdf form is enough for
| accessibility purposes? Maybe it is a stupid question but I have a
state
| site that needs to make their site accessible which I assume would
mean all
| their forms as well - which is a lot. So in my price quote I need to
| incorporate this if needed and it will be a lot of money that I have
verify
| reasons for. How do accessible people deal with printed forms? Do they
have
| someone else fill it out? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Hi Steffi,
Since you are going through and making a web site accessible for the
state or public, it may be a good time to make the whole site accessible
and also use valid XHTML. This way the site will be ready for any future
upgrades and changes made, too.
As far as accessibility, there are converters or tools for the PDF
version, but I believe it may be best to offer these in both web and
PDF.
I have no idea how others feel but an alternative would be to offer the
documents in correctly developed Word format.
---
Looking at these links will give you an idea what will need to be done
to prepare or convert existing documents over to Accessible PDF, if you
go this route. Though accurately created Accessible PDF works mostly
with JAWS and Window eyes, there is an online conversion tool for the
users of other readers. I think it is difficult to make users or
visitors go through extra tasks in order to get this information, check
that link below for online converting and see if it causes frustration
in you and imagine what it may feel like for a user who encounters a
form. They will have to first go to that site(if you provided the link
for conversion for non Jaws and Window Eyes readers. [
http://access.adobe.com/onlinetools.html ]
Once there, the user will have to read the instructions and go through
the conversion. I believe there are quicker and more accessible
solutions for documents on the web, and I am not sure that PDF is one of
these just yet.
---
Acrobat/PDF accessibility[webaim]
http://www.webaim.org/howto/acrobat
[quote From Webaim]
It's wonderful that Adobe has made it possible to make PDF files that
are accessible to users of screen readers. Remember though, that only
two screen readers on the market, JAWS and Window Eyes, currently
support accessible PDF files. This still leaves out the users of other
screen readers. It's always a good idea to provide an HTML version in
addition to the PDF, even if the PDF is created with accessibility in
mind. [/quote]
Though at adobe there are online conversion tools... for those having
screen readers other than Jaws, or Window Eyes. They cover web based
forms and E-mail submissions in English and French versions.
http://access.adobe.com/onlinetools.html
[quote from adobe page]This section provides tools to help visually
disabled users whose screen reader software is not compatible with Adobe
Acrobat