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From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 8:33AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Probably not, in my experience of user testing projects. In practice, it's
important thing is that headings are marked up as <hn> elements, but the
precise level is far less important. Consistency from page to page and
within pages is much more important than correct nesting of headings.

That said, I still encourage the use of correct nesting unless there is a
good reason not to.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 8:39AM
Subject: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Hi,

We are producing a site and part of my job is to see if the htmls and
frontend javascript jquery the design company provided is 508.

The heading on one page goes from an H1 designation to an H4 designation,

Will this be a problem for screen readers?

Thanks in advance,

Nancy

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 9:24AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Nancy Johnson wrote:
"The heading on one page goes from an H1 designation to an H4 designation, Will this be a problem for screen readers?"

It isn't a show stopper if they don't, but it's enormously helpful if they do. Headings fulfil two useful functions for screen reader users. They provide a mechanism for navigation, and they help build up a mental map of content structure.

With most current screen readers you can jump from one heading on the page to another using a shortcut key. It's something like visually scanning the page to find the right section, before exploring in more detail.

The heading levels aren't crucial for navigating through a page in this way, but they are helpful in terms of building a mental map of the content structure. Knowing how different sections of content relate to each other helps make the process of navigating by headings much more successful.

For example, a page might have multiple h2 headings, each followed by a number of h3 headings. If I moved to the first h2 with Jaws and it wasn't the section I was looking for,, I could use a short cut key that would take me directly to the next h2 (bypassing all the h3 headings in between). If the headings weren't nested logically, I wouldn't be able to take advantage of this, and would instead need to use the standard heading navigation key to move through every heading on the page.

The page you've described has a very simple heading structure, so all of this may not be as pertinent as it would be on other pages. Coming to the page as a screen reader user though, I'd be asking what relationship the h4 section had to the main (h1) area of the page? The headings still let me navigate through the content, but they don't make as much useful information available about the structure of the content as they could do.

Regards,
Léonie.

--
Nomensa - humanising technology

Léonie Watson, Director of Accessibility & Web Development

tel: +44 (0)117 929 7333
twitter: @we_are_Nomensa

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From: Will Grignon
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 9:33AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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I concur. Also, consistency from page to page is crucial - it makes all the
difference in the world if a screen reader user can devise a navigation
strategy at the first page and can use this strategy throughout the website
because every page on that site uses the same formatting conventions.

One note, however, I've encountered sites that seem to be separated into
sections, so when one types "1" to find a heading level 1 (I use JAWS
12.5...), the screen reader will only look for and try to find a heading
level 1 in that section and, if none are found, will report the same, even
though there might be dozens of lines formatted as heading level 1 in other
sections on the page.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 10:03AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Skipping h-levels is indeed a serious problem for non-visual users The
WCAG techniques notes:
"In some technologies, headings are designed to convey logical
hierarchy. Skipping levels in the sequence of headings may create the
impression that the structure of the document has not been properly
thought through or that specific headings have been chosen for their
visual rendering rather than their meaning. Authors are encouraged to
nest headings hierarchically. When headings are nested hierarchically,
the most important information is given the highest
logical level, and subsections are given subsequent logical
levels.(i.e., h2 is a subsection of h1)."
(Note: The above is under H69 which should be merged with H42 because
they are essentially the same technique that serves different
purposes. I have petitioned the WCAG-WG to do this and will be glad if
others second this via public comments process ).

A screen reader user may pause on detecting skipped heading levels,
go back to check if he accidently missed a heading. Or may search for
text that possibly has not been marked up as a heading or has been
rendered as text in an image styled as a heading. A sighted user does
not have to go back to do this because he can see there is no
heading.
WCAG 1 checkpoint 3.5 (priority-2) explicitly required headings to be
used as per specs.
Now WCAG 2 SC 1.3.1 is a Level A SC. Headings tags are perhaps the
most significant markup to expose structure and hierarchy. So
headings should not only be used consistently from page to page but
within a section of content, levels should not be skipped.
And why would one want to skip a level ... unless the intent is to
use a heading tag for its visual styling effect?
Léonie says it is not a show stopper. But if it slows me down or
makes me unsure of structure requiring me to perform other navigation
sequences to ensure I have comprehended the structure correctly, I
think it is a serious accessibility issue. And if markup that enhances
accessibility, is browser and AT-supported is being used
haphazardly, then why should developers not be faulted for it?
A counter for the show stopper argument: Screen reader software
accommodates for simple data tables with row/column headings not
marked up as TH or form controls in some situations not associated
with visible text labels. Do these not violate WCAG 2 SC 1.3.1 then?
Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com
On 5/2/11, Will Grignon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I concur. Also, consistency from page to page is crucial - it makes all the
> difference in the world if a screen reader user can devise a navigation
> strategy at the first page and can use this strategy throughout the website
> because every page on that site uses the same formatting conventions.
>
> One note, however, I've encountered sites that seem to be separated into
> sections, so when one types "1" to find a heading level 1 (I use JAWS
> 12.5...), the screen reader will only look for and try to find a heading
> level 1 in that section and, if none are found, will report the same, even
> though there might be dozens of lines formatted as heading level 1 in other
> sections on the page.
>
>
>
>

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 10:12AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Nancy Johnson wrote:

> We are producing a site and part of my job is to see if the htmls and
> frontend javascript jquery the design company provided is 508.
>
> The heading on one page goes from an H1 designation to an H4
> designation,
>
> Will this be a problem for screen readers?

Comments in this discussion have included good points - basically, jumping
from H1 to H4 is not good for accessibility but it is a relatively small
problem - but as you mention specifically 508, I think it is important to
ask whether the question is about
a) Section 508 conformance
b) impact on screen readers
c) accessibility in general.
Three very different issues, though they are of course related.

Section 508 conformance is about a fairly small set of rules*), formulated
with the intent of making them operationally defined, so that one can
objectively decide in a rather straightforward manner whether the rules are
complied with or not. Something you need when you wish to set up rules that
have legal force. The other side of the matter is that the rules cover just
a small (though important) fraction of accessibility issues.

I cannot see anything in Section 508 rules that would regulate the use of
headings. The clause that comes closest is "(d) Documents shall be organized
so they are readable without requiring an associated style sheet." Jumping
to h4 is problematic in non-CSS rendering, as the browser can be expected to
treat h4 as fourth-level heading. In graphic browsers, the default (non-CSS)
rendering of h4 is a block of text, with empty line before and after, with
the same font size as copy text, but in bold. Contrasted with the common
200% default size for h1, this may paint a wrong picture about the levels of
the headings.

But the document is still readable despite this, so I don't think we can say
that (d) is violated. The underlying ideas might be seen as suggesting that
skipping from h1 to h4 is not a good move, but this does not mean a
violation of the specific rule.

Yucca

From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 10:39AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

> I cannot see anything in Section 508 rules that would regulate the use of
> headings. The clause that comes closest is "(d) Documents shall be organized
> so they are readable without requiring an associated style sheet."

One could interpret "(o) A method shall be provided that permits users
to skip repetitive navigation links." to be met by providing a logical
heading structure. This does not require headings by any means, but if
a page has a proper heading structure, is this an adequate "method"
for skipping repetitive navigation?

I would say that it is, but only for users of technology that
facilitates heading navigation - for now, primarily screen reader
users. For sighted keyboard users, standard browsers do not *yet* (for
some inexplicable reason) provide navigation by headings, so we
prescribe a more universal "method" (generally a "skip" link) to
provide this functionality.

Jared Smith
WebAIM

From: Will Grignon
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 10:48AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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The "skip to" function does work to move the cursor to the meat of the page
but it isn't usually used to navigate within the page once a user has
skipped to the meat.

A roster of "same page" links that sets forth the outline of the page setup,
however, does give a user a very useful roadmap of what is on the page and
how the page is laid out, as well as a convenient mechanism for navigating
directly to specific sections on the page. This function is even more
useful when one can link-return to the roster of same page links from any
given section. Finally, it would be even more optimal if the labels of the
same page links were formatted in the same heading levels as the headings of
the sections to which they link.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 12:03PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Well even for S508, if the page has "headings" i.e. text styled to
appear like headings or images of text that appear like headings, I
will argue that h-markup is required to comply with S508 functional
performance criteria.
Section 1194.31 provides functional performance criteria for overall
product evaluation and are also intended to ensure that the individual
accessible components work together to create an accessible
application.
1194.31 (a) At least one mode of operation and information retrieval
that does not require user vision shall be provided, or support for
assistive technology used by people who are
blind or visually impaired shall be provided.
In effect, compliance with the performance criteria of �1194.31
is the test for Equivalent Facilitation.

So if h-tags are added to the doc, they should be as per specs:
consistent and correctly nested.
Sailesh


On 5/2/11, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We are producing a site and part of my job is to see if the htmls and
> frontend javascript jquery the design company provided is 508.
>
> The heading on one page goes from an H1 designation to an H4 designation,
>
> Will this be a problem for screen readers?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Nancy
>

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 12:48PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

Sailesh Panchang wrote:

> I will argue that h-markup is required to comply with S508 functional
> performance criteria.

The issue was not whether heading markup is used or not. Moreover,
argumentation based on free and loose interpretation of Section 508 rules is
questionable. Rules that specify whether something is legal or not are to be
interpreted rigorously: only things explicitly forbidden are to be treated
as illegal - any borderline cases are to be interpreted in favor of the
accused.

> 1194.31 (a) At least one mode of operation and information retrieval
> that does not require user vision shall be provided,

On web pages, with due provisions like alt texts, the criterion is fulfilled
fairly automatically.

> In effect, compliance with the performance criteria of �1194.31
> is the test for Equivalent Facilitation.

Equivalent Facilitation is not one of the criteria. Instead, it is used to
label this principle:
"Nothing in this part is intended to prevent the use of designs or
technologies as alternatives to those prescribed in this part provided they
result in substantially equivalent or greater access to and use of a product
for people with disabilities"
This _allows_ designs and technologies, instead of imposing restrictions.

> So if h-tags are added to the doc, they should be as per specs:
> consistent and correctly nested.

There is no specification that forbids an h4 following an h1. The specs at
most mention it as a good design principle not to skip heading levels. No
requirement. And even if there were a requirement in some HTML or WAI spec,
that would not make it part of Section 508 conformance.

Yucca

From: Ted
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 2:54PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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I couldn't agree more with Steve's point of "unless there is a good reason
not to." (The only way in which I would disagree is that I would say use
"hierarchical" rather than "correct" nesting unless there is a good reason
not to. )

Often well-structured web pages will have headings that don't jump levels.
But it's a giant leap from there to saying that they *must*, and that it's
an accessibility problem if they don't. On the contrary, sometimes it makes
editorial sense to jump from one level to another, and not doing so can
actually decrease comprehension rather than aid it.

This is particularly the case in PDFs where, for example, if the "no jumping
rule" is followed, information in a side bar may be given a weighting above
or below that which, editorially, it warrants.

Or take a document such as BS8878 which has explanatory notes throughout.
The notes all have the same relative importance within the document
(editorially), but some just happen to be physically located immediately
after <h2>s, some after <h3>s and some after <h4>s. There's nothing wrong
with the way the document is structured - it make perfect sense just as it
is. But it would be editorial nonsense to give all the notes different
levels of headings just because of their physical position on the page.

The heading level should describe and give meaning to the content rather
than be forced to follow some arbitrary rule that 2 must follow 1 etc.

Ted Page
Director, PWS Ltd

From: Jeevan Reddy
Date: Mon, May 02 2011 11:54PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
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Hi Nancy,
Find out wether that H4 is used for Content or template.
if it is used for template elements, it's not a big worry. if not, it'll be
a a problem for screen reader users.
Follow the below Standards for using H1-H6:
1 Use H1 or H2 For different sections in the content.
2 Use H3 or H4 as nested headings for different sections of content.
3 Don't skip the headings more than one order. That is if you used H2 then
use H3 or H4 as nested headings, not to use H5 or H6.
4 Follow the consistancy across the web site, you can use H1 as content
header, in other pages you can use H2 or at max H3, but not H4.
5 use H4, H5, and H6 for other than content sections. i.e for template
elements.

As your title suggests, it is not violation as per Section 508 is concerned,
but it is certainly a problem for screen reader users.


On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are producing a site and part of my job is to see if the htmls and
> frontend javascript jquery the design company provided is 508.
>
> The heading on one page goes from an H1 designation to an H4 designation,
>
> Will this be a problem for screen readers?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Nancy
>

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, May 03 2011 5:51AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

I can assure you that the first thing as a screen reader user that I look for on web pages are H1 through h4 headings and that many time skip to links do very little to speed up the use of finding the different sections on a web page. About the only time a skip to link is good for anything is when the page has only one large section.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, May 03 2011 8:09AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

Jukka

My statement was in the context of Web pages that have "headings"
(stylized text / images).
Equivalent facilitation will require compliance with 1194.31 (a) then.
The Technical Standards, Functional Performance criteria are sub parts
of the part 1194 of which equivalent facilitation too being an
essential component of this part.
And to comply with S508 a product must comply with all applicable
provisions and not just tech. standards. So the statement "Nothing in
this part ..." includes 1194.5 and 1194.31 and 1194.22.
Right... I am addressing the issue of headings for S508 broadly here.
My first email discussed the significance of not skipping levels.
Sailesh



On 5/2/11, Jukka K. Korpela < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>
>> I will argue that h-markup is required to comply with S508 functional
>> performance criteria.
>
> The issue was not whether heading markup is used or not. Moreover,
> argumentation based on free and loose interpretation of Section 508 rules is
> questionable. Rules that specify whether something is legal or not are to be
> interpreted rigorously: only things explicitly forbidden are to be treated
> as illegal - any borderline cases are to be interpreted in favor of the
> accused.
>
>> 1194.31 (a) At least one mode of operation and information retrieval
>> that does not require user vision shall be provided,
>
> On web pages, with due provisions like alt texts, the criterion is fulfilled
> fairly automatically.
>
>> In effect, compliance with the performance criteria of �1194.31
>> is the test for Equivalent Facilitation.
>
> Equivalent Facilitation is not one of the criteria. Instead, it is used to
> label this principle:
> "Nothing in this part is intended to prevent the use of designs or
> technologies as alternatives to those prescribed in this part provided they
> result in substantially equivalent or greater access to and use of a product
> for people with disabilities"
> This _allows_ designs and technologies, instead of imposing restrictions.
>
>> So if h-tags are added to the doc, they should be as per specs:
>> consistent and correctly nested.
>
> There is no specification that forbids an h4 following an h1. The specs at
> most mention it as a good design principle not to skip heading levels. No
> requirement. And even if there were a requirement in some HTML or WAI spec,
> that would not make it part of Section 508 conformance.
>
> Yucca
>
>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Tue, May 03 2011 12:42PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

No technical standard in current Section 508 requires use of headings, nor does it specify incremental consistent usage in any way. In addition, you might be able to clearly demonstrate a functional performance failure under specific circumstances regarding randomized heading usage, but in my view this would be limited to a specific situation and would involve extreme time impact on some users with disabilities. Equivalent facilitation allows for multiple ways to meet a technical standard, e.g. if tables are required to have headings, and you implement the whole thing in .css and such is navigable and understandable in the same fashion as mark-up would be, equivalent facilitation would be successful. The WCAG 2 format of the current 508 skip-nav is more broad, and requires ability to bypass blocks of text, which at the end of the day really does require, at least in one method, use of headings, and for sanity's sake consistently applied usage.


Allen Hoffman

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Tue, May 03 2011 12:48PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

I'd only add that inconsistent or senseless header change will affect
different users of screen readers in different ways, there really is no
"correct" answer. It wouldn't rise to a 508 technical failure in
general, unless it really makes a page absolutely un-navigable, or would
require such user memory to make reliance on the headers for navigation
pointless.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Tue, May 03 2011 3:48PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

Allen,
Right, the technical standards do not require headings.
When S508 was written, browsers and AT did not support heading
navigation. But this has changed since.
The objective of the law is to provide "comparable access" to PWD.
Now 1194.31 (A) says "At least one mode of operation and information
retrieval that does not require user vision shall be provided, or
support for assistive technology used by people who are blind or
visually impaired shall be provided".
When the page uses text / image-text styled as headers, marking them
up with h-tags will allow comparable access to headers without
requiring blind users to read complete page using an info retrieval
feature supported by AT today that was not available in 2000-01. This
is a functional outcome.

The Access Board guide says "...a recognition that future technologies
may be developed, or existing technologies could be used in a
particular way, that could provide the same functional access in ways
not envisioned by these standards. In
evaluating whether a technology results in "substantially equivalent
or greater access," it is the functional outcome, not the form, which
is important".
I think the spirit and intent of the law are guiding factors- really
important during implementing any law.
So heading markup is required only when the page uses text /
image-text styled as headers.
Sailesh


On 5/3/11, Hoffman, Allen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I'd only add that inconsistent or senseless header change will affect
> different users of screen readers in different ways, there really is no
> "correct" answer. It wouldn't rise to a 508 technical failure in
> general, unless it really makes a page absolutely un-navigable, or would
> require such user memory to make reliance on the headers for navigation
> pointless.
>
>
>
>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Wed, May 04 2011 3:18PM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

My difficulty with full use of comparable in a technical testing context
is that it can mean so many things to so many people.

While I can concur that by using headings someone using some AT products
can navigate on that basis, the question is, is that a function of the
page, or a presentation style. I don't believe most site developers
would connect their use of heading styles to navigation, but would
understand the visual appeal. This would be an item which can be
considered a potential testable step for 1194.31(a), as you cite, if
header navigation is considered part of the actual page navigation in
general. I don't believe headers are required for skipping repetitive
navigation or content, but might be accepted as one success technique
for that.

Sigh.
If you throw five IT accessibility people one a single page you get ten
accessibility answers! <smile>.

Excellent evaluation discussion.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, May 05 2011 7:09AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

Allen,
I too do not consider requiring headings simply as a method of
skipping repetitive content (H69 of WCAG 2 techniques). Headings are
meant to expose structure and hierarchy within a section of content
and they are just that. Heading navigation is a feature of assistive
technology by which users are able to perceive thstructure that most
users can do visually. (Developers need not be aware of how headings
are used by different groups of users... they simply need to use
headings as conceptualized and set out in the HTML specs). This AT
feature _incidentally_ helps users skip to main content / skip
navigation blocks if the document is marked up well thereby satisfying
SC 2.4.1 of WCAG2 or Para (o) of S508.
Thanks,
Sailesh Panchang
www.deque.com


On 5/4/11, Hoffman, Allen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> My difficulty with full use of comparable in a technical testing context
> is that it can mean so many things to so many people.
>
> While I can concur that by using headings someone using some AT products
> can navigate on that basis, the question is, is that a function of the
> page, or a presentation style. I don't believe most site developers
> would connect their use of heading styles to navigation, but would
> understand the visual appeal. This would be an item which can be
> considered a potential testable step for 1194.31(a), as you cite, if
> header navigation is considered part of the actual page navigation in
> general. I don't believe headers are required for skipping repetitive
> navigation or content, but might be accepted as one success technique
> for that.
>
> Sigh.
> If you throw five IT accessibility people one a single page you get ten
> accessibility answers! <smile>.
>
> Excellent evaluation discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Pollard, Larry W. (DRS)
Date: Thu, May 05 2011 7:21AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | Next message →

I try to let these questions run their course before responding and
please forgive me for any one that make not agree with this post. When
Sailesh responded with his post in regards to the technical standards do
not require headings. When S508 was written, browsers and AT did not
support heading
Navigation that was 100% correct, the fact of the matter is designers'
and developers and mind you not all of them but quite a few would prefer
not to bother with putting in proper Headings, Alt Text, Tags and such,
because they are in a hurry to throw content out there and are not
concerned with Accessibility or Usability. Most of the folks I have had
the pleasure of talking with on the WebAIM Blog are concerned about this
and try to design for Accessibility and Usability. Even if it's not the
law it is the right thing to by adding the proper Headings, Alt Text,
Tags is that what it's all about. Thank you and have a great day.

Larry. Pollard
Accessibility Webmaster
Department of Rehabilitative Services

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Thu, May 05 2011 11:24AM
Subject: Re: H1 to H4 titles sub titles....
← Previous message | No next message

Thank you for this thread...It has been intersting reading through
all of your thoughts
For the purpoe of this page in question:
Dyanmically, each page has one h1, as the h1 is dyanmically used in
navigation and <title>.....</title>
But I will change the h4's to h2's...

So will be 1- h1 tag,, 3-h2 tags, nested in the last h2 will be a
number of h3 tags..

Nancy

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Sailesh Panchang
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Allen,
> I too do not consider requiring headings simply as a method of
> skipping repetitive content (H69 of WCAG 2 techniques). Headings are
> meant to expose structure and hierarchy within a section of content
> and they are just that. Heading navigation is a feature of  assistive
> technology by which users are able to perceive thstructure that most
> users can do visually. (Developers need not be aware of how headings
> are used by different groups of users... they simply need to use
> headings as conceptualized and set out in the HTML specs). This AT
> feature _incidentally_ helps users skip to main content  / skip
> navigation blocks if the document is marked up well thereby satisfying
> SC 2.4.1 of WCAG2 or Para (o) of S508.
> Thanks,
> Sailesh Panchang
> www.deque.com
>
>
> On 5/4/11, Hoffman, Allen < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> My difficulty with full use of comparable in a technical testing context
>> is that it can mean so many things to so many people.
>>
>> While I can concur that by using headings someone using some AT products
>> can navigate on that basis, the question is, is that a function of the
>> page, or a presentation style.  I don't believe most site developers
>> would connect their use of heading styles to navigation, but would
>> understand the visual appeal.  This would be an item which can be
>> considered a potential testable step for 1194.31(a), as you cite, if
>> header navigation is considered part of the actual page navigation in
>> general.  I don't believe headers are required for skipping repetitive
>> navigation or content, but might be accepted as one success technique
>> for that.
>>
>> Sigh.
>> If you throw five IT accessibility people one a single page you get ten
>> accessibility answers!  <smile>.
>>
>> Excellent evaluation discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>