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Thread: reading list mail
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 12:36PM
Subject: reading list mail
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Hello:
First I would like to say how helpful this list has turned out to be. However, I did want to say that I was very surprised to find a common it professional problem on this list. As most people on this list are in the accessibility field I was very surprised to see that people on this list were bottom posting. Think about this for a second I and many screen reader users do not have punctuation turned on it's too verbose to listen to. So now think about how a person using a screen reader might know how to tell what is new and what is quoted text. And why do us screen reader users need to hear all the old content over and over depending on how many times the message is replied to. Please people could we try and top post in most cases. Or if you must answer inline witch I know needs to happen many times prefix your comments with something other than punctuation. Thanks Lucy
Lucy Greco
Assistive Technology Specialist
Disabled Student's Program UC Berkeley
(510) 643-7591
http://attlc.berkeley.edu
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:06PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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Thanks Lucy. The debate over top-posting vs. bottom-posting will never
be resolved. While you make a good argument for top posting, there are
many advantages to bottom posting. If only Joe Clark were still around
to provide his opinion on the matter. :-)
For those that may not be familiar, top posting is the practice of
writing your response at the top of the message you are responding to,
while including the entire previous message (and probably any previous
messages) within, but at the bottom of your e-mail. Bottom posting
means including the previous message(s) at the top of your response
and adding your comments at the bottom.
For accessibility and usability reasons, BOTH approaches are bad. The
duplication of the entire previous message(s) is not necessary and
makes the message much more difficult to consume and less accessible.
We recommend that when responding to a message, that you remove the
original message from your reply e-mail. It is easy for list
subscribers to find the previous e-mail if they choose to review it.
Any e-mail program worth using can easily thread messages. If there
are particular portions of the message you want to reference
specifically, trim the message to only the relevant portions, then
include these brief quoted portions inline or at the top of your
message. Whether you use the standard > character or some other
designation to indicate the quotation shouldn't matter.
Deleting the previous message or trimming to the relevant portions
also helps keep the online list archives
(http://webaim.org/discussion/archives) user friendly and accessible.
Thanks all.
Jared Smith
WebAIM.org
From: John Foliot
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:24PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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Answer: this is why!
Question: why is top posting bad?
(Homage to Joe Clark)
*********************
Jared Smith wrote:
>
>
> For accessibility and usability reasons, BOTH approaches are bad.
Can't have a double negative Jared: "bad" is binary, and requires "good"
(or at least "better") to be valid <grin>.
> The
> duplication of the entire previous message(s) is not necessary and
> makes the message much more difficult to consume and less accessible.
Hera, hear! Message trimming takes more work on the part of the responder,
but failing to do so - especially to lists - makes list archives bloated
and confusing. Do your part and be a good list citizen!
>
> We recommend that when responding to a message, that you remove the
> original message from your reply e-mail.
Completely? On a mailing-list, that negatively affects late-comers, as
they are now reading a message with no context. Saying that users can go
back and do the extra leg-work to get caught up isn't (IMHO) very user
friendly - and we should be looking after our users first, no?
> If there
> are particular portions of the message you want to reference
> specifically, trim the message to only the relevant portions, then
> include these brief quoted portions inline or at the top of your
> message.
...or, as I do here, respond inter-leaved after trimming the prior post. I
am a huge fan of inter-leaved responses (and thus do it all the time) as
it keeps on-line (written) discussions focused and relevant, especially if
there is more than 1 point that a response is seeking to make or address.
>
> Deleting the previous message or trimming to the relevant portions
> also helps keep the online list archives
> (http://webaim.org/discussion/archives) user friendly and accessible.
+1
JF
From: Elle
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:30PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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The fact that this is even a topic of discussion is one reason why this is
the *only* list to which I subscribe (and read). Thank you for always
considering users (however difficult we may be as a collective).
~Elle
From: John Foliot
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:36PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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Lucy Greco wrote:
>
> Think about this for a second I and many
> screen reader users do not have punctuation turned on it's too verbose
> to listen to. So now think about how a person using a screen reader
> might know how to tell what is new and what is quoted text.
It strikes me that this should be a feature/function of your software
combinations. With no offense intended Lucy, I am troubled by authors
creating content that is specifically targeted to one user-group. I
understand that the redundancy factor that screen-reader users must deal
with can be tiring, but top-posting also introduces cognition issues for
other users. Once again, this is why I choose to use inter-leaved
responses to trimmed posts, as it attempts to find a balance that works
for all users, and not just screen reader users.
> Please people
> could we try and top post in most cases. Or if you must answer inline
> which I know needs to happen many times prefix your comments with
> something other than punctuation.
Such as? Most text-based email clients I know of (and I generally avoid
HTML-rich email) use the greater-than symbol, although (at least in
Outlook) that can be changed to something else. What would you recommend
instead? But just like in HTML, when it comes to email remember POUR -
Perceivable, Operable, Understandable and Robust. Top posting hurts in the
Perceivable and Understandable departments (IMHO)
JF
From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:42PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:21 PM, John Foliot wrote:
> ...or, as I do here, respond inter-leaved after trimming the prior post.
Yep! This is precisely what I advocate. When there are relevant
portions you are responding to directly, quote them as I have done
here. Neat and tidy, huh?
However, if you are responding to a post or topic in general, it is
not generally necessary to include the entirety of the previous
message either at the top or the bottom of your response.
Jared
From: Randi Owens
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 1:48PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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This has come up before, and it's one of the reasons I rarely read anything here unless a subject grabbs me. Using a screen reader, if a reply is on top, I just close the message.
Thanks for making this point again. :)
Randi
On Aug 3, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Lucy Greco wrote:
> Hello:
> First I would like to say how helpful this list has turned out to be. However, I did want to say that I was very surprised to find a common it professional problem on this list. As most people on this list are in the accessibility field I was very surprised to see that people on this list were bottom posting. Think about this for a second I and many screen reader users do not have punctuation turned on it's too verbose to listen to. So now think about how a person using a screen reader might know how to tell what is new and what is quoted text. And why do us screen reader users need to hear all the old content over and over depending on how many times the message is replied to. Please people could we try and top post in most cases. Or if you must answer inline witch I know needs to happen many times prefix your comments with something other than punctuation. Thanks Lucy
>
>
>
>
> Lucy Greco
> Assistive Technology Specialist
> Disabled Student's Program UC Berkeley
> (510) 643-7591
> http://attlc.berkeley.edu
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 2:03PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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THANKS EVERY ONE FOR THE GOOD discussion . JOHN WHEN I SUGGESTED PREFIXING WITH SOME THING OTHER THEN A > I MEANT
Lucy Greco wrote:
>
> Think about this for a second I and many screen reader users do not
> have punctuation turned on it's too verbose to listen to. So now think
> about how a person using a screen reader might know how to tell what
> is new and what is quoted text.
It strikes me that this should be a feature/function of your software combinations. With no offense intended Lucy, I am troubled by authors creating content that is specifically targeted to one user-group. I understand that the redundancy factor that screen-reader users must deal with can be tiring, but top-posting also introduces cognition issues for other users. Once again, this is why I choose to use inter-leaved responses to trimmed posts, as it attempts to find a balance that works for all users, and not just screen reader users.
> Please people
> could we try and top post in most cases. Or if you must answer inline
> which I know needs to happen many times prefix your comments with
> something other than punctuation.
Such as? Most text-based email clients I know of (and I generally avoid HTML-rich email) use the greater-than symbol, although (at least in
Outlook) that can be changed to something else. What would you recommend instead?
ANSWER JUST LIKE THIS OR USE YOUR INITIALS OR MANY OTHER TRICKS THAT CAN BE USED I WORK WITH LOTS OF STUDENTS WITH LEARNING DISABILITY'S AND THEY ALSO GET OVER WHELMED BY INLINE IN LESS THE APPLICATION USES COLOR TO INDICATE. I AGREE THAT AT VENDERS HAVE A LOT TO ANSWER FOR IN SCREEN READER ROBUSTNESS. BUT SOME TIMES THE USERS NEED TO WORK HARDER TO.
But just like in HTML, when it comes to email remember POUR - Perceivable, Operable, Understandable and Robust. Top posting hurts in the Perceivable and Understandable departments (IMHO)
JF
ONE OTHER POINT I WANTED TO MAKE WAS SOME MANY EXECUTIVES NEVER READ PAST THE LINE. SO IF YOUR ANSWERS ARE INLINE OR AT THE BOTTOM THE BOSS IS NOT SEEING IT
From: David Dorward
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 4:09PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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On 3 Aug 2011, at 20:35, John Foliot wrote:
> It strikes me that this should be a feature/function of your software
> combinations.
I live in hope a day when mail clients provide methods to recognise and manage quoted material. When I used mutt, many years ago, it had a key command that would skip to the next block of new material, and another that would hide all quoted material. GMail and Apple Mail.app appear to be trying to implement automatic folding of large blocks of quoted material, but it doesn't seem to be very effective — it is a welcome sign of progress though.
--
David Dorward
From: Webb, KerryA
Date: Wed, Aug 03 2011 4:45PM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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LG wrote:
>
> ONE OTHER POINT I WANTED TO MAKE WAS SOME MANY EXECUTIVES NEVER READ PAST
> THE LINE. SO IF YOUR ANSWERS ARE INLINE OR AT THE BOTTOM THE BOSS IS NOT
> SEEING IT
>
If this was meant as a joke, it fell flat.
I don't think we get anywhere with gross generalisations.
Kerry
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From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Thu, Aug 04 2011 7:03AM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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To me, this sounds like the kind of thing that would be great for the mail client to handle. There definitely appear to be strong user preferences and needs for providing the information in alternate ways.
My own preference depends on circumstances. Usually I prefer the message appear at the top of the e-mail, since I am already aware of the past conversation or have all the past e-mails if I really want to go back and look at a history of the conversation. Sometimes, with e-mails that involve a lot of complex questions or where someone is responding to multiple points, I like it when the responses are interleaved with quotes. Though I will admit that (while my screen reader will read the punctuation to me) it gets difficult to read such e-mails when there are multiple nested quotes. Bottom posting works great for me when I don't have all previous e-mails and will need context to understand the response--though I rarely get e-mails this way so I have a tendency to fail to see the response at the end. But it still has its uses.
This conversation is a great example of how usability and accessibility intermingle and how user preference relates to accessibility. It doesn't necessarily sound like any of the options are absolutely inaccessible. However, some solutions are more or less efficient or usable depending on the user--or the situation. Also, there has been some comments about screen reader punctuation reading settings. That is a user preference that can be related to the user's comfort as well as increased efficiency in reading. It's potentially an accessibility/usability issue that is also a user preference issue.
Thanks!
Tim
From: Karen Mardahl
Date: Thu, Aug 04 2011 10:06AM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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This entire discussion of preferences for reading list mail and the
accessibility/usability of these things is a great topic. This type of thing
is what got me to thinking years ago about the mere writing of mails on
lists. Even people who don't use screen readers get annoyed at loads of
indent markings in a mail that has zigzagged its way among many people.
Mails become virtually unreadable when they go 8-10 layers deep and line
wraps kick in. Clarity in writing mails helps everyone.
When you add sloppy writing (in groups where people are professionally
capable of high quality writing) and spelling, unfamiliar abbreviations,
huge blocks of text - even images - in the signature, well, I often think,
wow, mails like that must be a nightmare in a screen reader. In other words,
carelessness from people who have the ability to care could be excluding
screen reader users who just go elsewhere for their discussions.
Discussing the accessibility of reading mail lists just shows how
accessibility really is everywhere - somewhat like Elle said elsewhere in
this thread.
Regards, Karen Mardahl
From: ckrugman
Date: Mon, Aug 29 2011 12:24AM
Subject: Re: reading list mail
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I agree, I tend to skip over those messages with the previous posting first
especially when JAWS reads all of the > signs that appear in forwarded
emails. The advantage is that I can down arrow through the > signs and try
to find the current parts.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randi Owens" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] reading list mail
> This has come up before, and it's one of the reasons I rarely read
> anything here unless a subject grabbs me. Using a screen reader, if a
> reply is on top, I just close the message.
>
> Thanks for making this point again. :)
>
> Randi
>
> On Aug 3, 2011, at 11:36 AM, Lucy Greco wrote:
>
>> Hello:
>> First I would like to say how helpful this list has turned out to be.
>> However, I did want to say that I was very surprised to find a common it
>> professional problem on this list. As most people on this list are in the
>> accessibility field I was very surprised to see that people on this list
>> were bottom posting. Think about this for a second I and many screen
>> reader users do not have punctuation turned on it's too verbose to listen
>> to. So now think about how a person using a screen reader might know how
>> to tell what is new and what is quoted text. And why do us screen reader
>> users need to hear all the old content over and over depending on how
>> many times the message is replied to. Please people could we try and top
>> post in most cases. Or if you must answer inline witch I know needs to
>> happen many times prefix your comments with something other than
>> punctuation. Thanks Lucy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy Greco
>> Assistive Technology Specialist
>> Disabled Student's Program UC Berkeley
>> (510) 643-7591
>> http://attlc.berkeley.edu
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>