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From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 4:18AM
Subject: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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Does anyone know if there is an Adobe InDesign discussion group that focuses
on creating tagged PDF from InDesign? I've come across a couple of documents
where a technique should work but isn't in CS5.5 and wonder if the client is
missing a step or there is a formatting error..or a huge bug in InDesign.



Cheers, Karen



Karen McCall

Microsoft MVP for Word



Karlen Communications

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 8:39AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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There has been some discussion in the past about InDesign and PDF in the
AcrobatUsers.com group http://acrobatusers.com/

I have not seen anything recently, but I'm betting there are people in there
who know.

I'm still using (and paying for) CS5

~j

John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

From: Vincent Young
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 9:21AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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> I've come across a couple of documents
> where a technique should work but isn't in CS5.5 and wonder if the client
is
> missing a step or there is a formatting error..or a huge bug in InDesign.

Just an FYI, the techniques I use to create accessible PDFs in InDesign
7.0.4 (CS5) seem to work just fine. The specific steps to re-create the
problem would help me debug. If it is a problem, could just be CS5.5. You
might check to see if it persists in earlier versions as well.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:40 AM, John E Brandt < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> There has been some discussion in the past about InDesign and PDF in the
> AcrobatUsers.com group http://acrobatusers.com/
>
> I have not seen anything recently, but I'm betting there are people in
> there
> who know.
>
> I'm still using (and paying for) CS5
>
> ~j
>
> John E. Brandt
> www.jebswebs.com
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 207-622-7937
> Augusta, Maine, USA
>
>
>

From: Mike Moore
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 9:30AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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Hi Karen,

I have not seen a discussion forum around in design generated PDF accessibility but we have been working fairly extensively with forms that were created in in design and have discovered a few tricks. Unfortunately, we have experienced many examples of what you describe in your book as fragile PDFs where some of the visual content disappears. We can usually bring that content back through manipulation of the content tree in the content panel but not always.

Adobe has a short video on their website covering the tag mapping functions in in design.

I would definitely be interested in joining a discussion list centered around PDF accessibility issues. XDP (live cycle designer dynamic forms) is another area where there seems to be a need for more community support.

Mike Moore

On Aug 25, 2011, at 5:18 AM, "Karlen Communications" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Does anyone know if there is an Adobe InDesign discussion group that focuses
> on creating tagged PDF from InDesign? I've come across a couple of documents
> where a technique should work but isn't in CS5.5 and wonder if the client is
> missing a step or there is a formatting error..or a huge bug in InDesign.
>
>
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>
>
> Karen McCall
>
> Microsoft MVP for Word
>
>
>
> Karlen Communications
>
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 10:24AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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One problem is that if I map the Styles to the tags the document is OK but
if I map Tags to Styles the leading is off and content floats anywhere on
the page. I have one layer, one piece of background. ..it is not a
complicated one page document.

I'm also noticing that if I go into Story Editor after mapping things and
generating the structure none of the Tags are there or they are literally
tripping over each other so I have to delete them and add them manually in
Story Editor in order to get a properly tagged PDF.

I know that theoretically if you map styles to Tags you shouldn't have to
map Tags to Styles but I've always found it necessary in order to get good
Tags...unless this is a former bug now fixed in CS 5.5? I'm used to creating
clean documents so this is confusing about where to focus my time in
ensuring Styles and Tags talk nicely with each other.

Am also curious about mapping Tags to Styles when you have 6 paragraph
styles in a document. You can't choose multiple items in the list for the P
Tag.

It would be so nice if we could do all of this in the Paragraph Style dialog
and just choose from a list of Tags to associate with the Paragraph Style!
...and we had an actual Tags Tree to work with, Highlight Content and other
tools!

Count me in for a LiveCycle Designer discussion group as well!

Mike: Can you create a form template in InDesign and have the text tagged
properly in LiveCycle? I've found that unless I create the entire form in
LiveCycle the text on the page is often not tagged/readable using adaptive
technology.

Cheers, Karen

From: Vincent Young
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 10:51AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
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Hi all,

I'd like to get some feedback on drop-down menus. I've been gathering some
examples of drop-down menus and there is quite a bit of variation. Here is
a basic synopsis of what I have found:

http://www.knowbility.org/ <http://www.knowbility.org/%20>;
- Their implementation seems to take from the AOL DHTML Style Guide (
http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide). In this implementation only the
first level menu items are TAB navigable. If a first level menus item has
focus, pressing the right/left arrow moves focus. Once focus is received
the sub-menu is exposed and this menus is navigated via the up/down arrow
keys.

http://www.blakehaswell.com/lab/dropdown/deux/
- All top-level and sub-menu items are TAB navigable. The sub-menu is
exposed and TAB navigable once it's top-level menu item receives focus.
Arrowing is disabled.

http://www.udm4.com/demos/horizontal-absolute-top-left.php
- Implementation is a blend of the prior two examples.

http://www.nomensa.com/
- Only the top level menu is TAB navigable. Sub-menu items are exposed on
subsequent pages.

It would be nice to hear from the keyboard user community to find out what
is preferred when it comes to drop-down menus. There is a lot of variation
out there and I'm wondering if this all becomes overwhelming and confusing.
Any usability study information on this matter would be very helpful. If
there has been a previous discussion on the topic, I'd appreciate being
pointed to the right direction.

Thanks.

Best,
Vincent

--
WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
Vincent Young - Principal
33 E. Lincoln St.
Columbus, OH 43215
p: 614.607.3400
f: 339-674-3400
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w: http://www.webhipster.com

From: Vincent Young
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 11:03AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
← Previous message | Next message →

Forgot to mention in my last e-mail that feedback is welcome from the
Accessibility community on what direction sub-menu navigation is headed.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to get some feedback on drop-down menus. I've been gathering some
> examples of drop-down menus and there is quite a bit of variation. Here is
> a basic synopsis of what I have found:
>
> http://www.knowbility.org/ <http://www.knowbility.org/%20>;
> - Their implementation seems to take from the AOL DHTML Style Guide (
> http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide). In this implementation only the
> first level menu items are TAB navigable. If a first level menus item has
> focus, pressing the right/left arrow moves focus. Once focus is received
> the sub-menu is exposed and this menus is navigated via the up/down arrow
> keys.
>
> http://www.blakehaswell.com/lab/dropdown/deux/
> - All top-level and sub-menu items are TAB navigable. The sub-menu is
> exposed and TAB navigable once it's top-level menu item receives focus.
> Arrowing is disabled.
>
> http://www.udm4.com/demos/horizontal-absolute-top-left.php
> - Implementation is a blend of the prior two examples.
>
> http://www.nomensa.com/
> - Only the top level menu is TAB navigable. Sub-menu items are exposed on
> subsequent pages.
>
> It would be nice to hear from the keyboard user community to find out what
> is preferred when it comes to drop-down menus. There is a lot of variation
> out there and I'm wondering if this all becomes overwhelming and confusing.
> Any usability study information on this matter would be very helpful. If
> there has been a previous discussion on the topic, I'd appreciate being
> pointed to the right direction.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best,
> Vincent
>
> --
> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> Vincent Young - Principal
> 33 E. Lincoln St.
> Columbus, OH 43215
> p: 614.607.3400
> f: 339-674-3400
> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>
>


--
WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
Vincent Young - Principal
33 E. Lincoln St.
Columbus, OH 43215
p: 614.607.3400
f: 339-674-3400
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w: http://www.webhipster.com

From: Mike Moore
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 11:54AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
← Previous message | Next message →

> Mike: Can you create a form template in InDesign and have the text tagged
> properly in LiveCycle? I've found that unless I create the entire form in
> LiveCycle the text on the page is often not tagged/readable using adaptive
> technology.

I have not been able to do that successfully in LiveCycle. What we have been doing is to take the PDF from in design, open it in acrobat pro, remove the tags, add the form fields and the tool tips, retag the PDF then clean up the tag tree. We are also finding fewer problems with disappearing content if we break the documents into single pages then stitch it all together when we have everything right. The nice part about the single page at a time process is that each page gets wrapped in a single part tag which seems to improve response time in older versions of JFW. An added benefit is that you can split the work among several people.

Sent from my iPad
Mike

On Aug 25, 2011, at 11:23 AM, "Karlen Communications" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> One problem is that if I map the Styles to the tags the document is OK but
> if I map Tags to Styles the leading is off and content floats anywhere on
> the page. I have one layer, one piece of background. ..it is not a
> complicated one page document.
>
> I'm also noticing that if I go into Story Editor after mapping things and
> generating the structure none of the Tags are there or they are literally
> tripping over each other so I have to delete them and add them manually in
> Story Editor in order to get a properly tagged PDF.
>
> I know that theoretically if you map styles to Tags you shouldn't have to
> map Tags to Styles but I've always found it necessary in order to get good
> Tags...unless this is a former bug now fixed in CS 5.5? I'm used to creating
> clean documents so this is confusing about where to focus my time in
> ensuring Styles and Tags talk nicely with each other.
>
> Am also curious about mapping Tags to Styles when you have 6 paragraph
> styles in a document. You can't choose multiple items in the list for the P
> Tag.
>
> It would be so nice if we could do all of this in the Paragraph Style dialog
> and just choose from a list of Tags to associate with the Paragraph Style!
> ...and we had an actual Tags Tree to work with, Highlight Content and other
> tools!
>
> Count me in for a LiveCycle Designer discussion group as well!
>
> Mike: Can you create a form template in InDesign and have the text tagged
> properly in LiveCycle? I've found that unless I create the entire form in
> LiveCycle the text on the page is often not tagged/readable using adaptive
> technology.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>

From: Bevi Chagnon
Date: Thu, Aug 25 2011 12:24PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign to Accessible PDF discussion group
← Previous message | No next message

RE: and InDesign accessibility group:
No, I haven't found one. Looks like we have a handful of people who are
interested so let's start a discussion group. I've formed several other
groups in Yahoo Groups and Google Groups. Anyone have a preference?

RE: tagging in InDesign.
Upgrade immediately to CS5.5. Although accessibility still isn't perfect, it
is greatly improved and worth every penny of the upgrade price. Here are
some of the key accessibility features in CS5.5.

Karen wrote: "It would be so nice if we could do all of this in the
Paragraph Style dialog and just choose from a list of Tags to associate with
the Paragraph Style!"

It's there in CS5.5. With each paragraph style you can also select which tag
to map it to. Plus, another utility lets you see all your tags and styles
and map them one-by-one or automatically. For example, if you use the
official bullet/numbered list features in a paragraph style, it will
automatically be tagged as <LI> and when exported to PDF, the required list
structure is created, <L>, <LI> etc.

Tables are automatically tagged, too, with the required TH and TD tags in
place. Story/Article threading is handled in a nice panel, so you can thread
all the pieces of the layout very quickly and generated a tagged PDF with
the correct tag order.

OMG I'm in Heaven!!!

I've been running my accessibility for InDesign classes on CS5.5 for a few
months and the process works very well. Still a few glitches, but worth the
upgrade cost.

--Bevi

--
Bevi Chagnon | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
PubCom - Trainers, consultants, designers, and developers
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and Federal Section 508
--
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