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Thread: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:36AM
Subject: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads <strong> versus <em>? Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?


Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:45AM
Subject: Re: difference in sound between <strong> and <em>
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Oiy! I tried to figure this out last spring. I *think* I concluded that it
doesn't really make a difference at this point in time.

I wrote up my experiences in my blog
Long URL:
http://jebswebs.net/blog/2011/06/html5-i-b-em-strong-whats-the-scoop/
Short URL: http://tinyurl.com/3p8xm22

If you get a definitive answer, I'd love to hear it!

~j


John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA


From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 11:51AM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads <strong> versus <em>?

I've never seen a difference in handling between <strong> and <em>. I
suppose a screen reader should read <em> louder or with more
inflection than <strong>. But, most screen readers don't do anything
different with this markup anyway. And the few that do or that are
customized to read them differently don't treat <strong> and <b> or
<em> and <i> any differently - they read the presentational <b> and
<i> the same as they do the semantic <strong> and <em>. While this is
certainly incorrect behavior, this markup is generally used
incorrectly anyway, so it's not all bad.

> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?

Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and
follow the HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far
as accessibility goes.

Jared

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 12:09PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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6.10.2011 20:49, Jared Smith wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Angela French< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader reads<strong> versus<em>?
>
> I've never seen a difference in handling between <strong> and <em>. I
> suppose a screen reader should read <em> louder or with more
> inflection than <strong>. But, most screen readers don't do anything
> different with this markup anyway.

There's the additional point that we cannot really expect software to be
changed much in this respect, because the HTML5 drafts redefine the
semantics of <em> and <strong>. They are no more supposed to indicate
different levels of emphasis but "emphasis" vs. "importance" It's a
confusing issue, in my mind, and in most people's minds, and it's
difficult to say how they _should_ be rendered in non-visual presentation.

>> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey emphasis?
>
> Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and
> follow the HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far
> as accessibility goes.

There's surely a point in following the current HTML specifications as
regards to semantics of elements. But it's not a particularly strong
point, as most stakeholders (like authors of browsers and assistive
software, and web authors, and search engines) don't take the semantics
very seriously. And the semantics will be changed if HTML5 gets approved.

I think the most important thing is to be consistent. If you use markup
consistently, it is easier to tune the rendering with style sheets. As
long as you know what you are doing - e.g., use <em> (or <i>) for words
emphasized in sentence context and <strong> (or <b>) for words that
should be highlighted - you need not worry too much about phrase-level
markup.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 12:42PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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Jared - I wanted to clarify my question. I meant toask/ imply is there any different between <strong> or <em> to convey emphasis?


>> Does it make a difference which is used if the purpose is to convey
>emphasis?
>
>Yes it does, at least if you want to be semantically correct and follow the
>HTML spec. It currently doesn't make any difference as far as accessibility
>goes.
>
>Jared
>

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:06PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Angela French wrote:
> Jared - I wanted to clarify my question.  I meant toask/ imply  is there any different between <strong> or <em> to convey emphasis?

In HTML4 and XHTML, <em> indicates emphasis and <strong> indicates
strong emphasis. By the way, I mixed these up in my previous e-mail -
it should indicate that screen readers might read <strong> louder or
with more inflection than <em>. Even I can't keep them straight.

In HTML5, <em> represents stress emphasis of its contents and <strong>
represents strong importance for its contents. As Jukka notes, the
differences are subtle and rather pedantic. The best way I can explain
it is that <em> conveys a visual designation, distinction, or
emphasis, but does not convey importance. The HTML5 spec has some
examples that may or may not help -
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element

Of note is that in HTML4 there are two levels of emphasis - either
<em> or <strong>. In HTML5, you can nest <em> and/or <strong> to
convey multiple levels of emphasis or importance. While I think this
is <strong>really, <strong>REALLY</strong></strong> odd, you can see
that there might be some applications for it. Perhaps if you nest
enough of them, JAWS might lose its voice from screaming at you?

In all cases, <i> and <b> are not for emphasis or importance, but for
other (yet again convoluted by HTML5) things.

But as has been mentioned, none of this really matters in practice.

Jared

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:27PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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<em> conveys visual designation? Really? I would have left that up to <bold> which is presentational/visual.

I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system, and they are using <b> and <italic> within instructions - neither of which is structural or, I assume, will convey the intended importance to a screen reader user.



. The best way I can explain it is
>that <em> conveys a visual designation, distinction, or emphasis, but does
>not convey importance. The HTML5 spec has some examples that may or may
>not help - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-em-element
>
>Of note is that in HTML4 there are two levels of emphasis - either <em> or
><strong>. In HTML5, you can nest <em> and/or <strong> to convey multiple
>levels of emphasis or importance. While I think this is <strong>really,
><strong>REALLY</strong></strong> odd, you can see that there might be
>some applications for it. Perhaps if you nest enough of them, JAWS might
>lose its voice from screaming at you?
>
>In all cases, <i> and <b> are not for emphasis or importance, but for other (yet
>again convoluted by HTML5) things.
>
>But as has been mentioned, none of this really matters in practice.
>
>Jared
>

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 1:51PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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6.10.2011 22:26, Angela French wrote:

> <em> conveys visual designation? Really?

That's what it does, in practice, and all it does, mostly.
Theoretically, it means something else, but there's no _good_ theory
about it and, more importantly, relevant software does not care about
the theory.

> I would have left that up to <bold> which is presentational/visual.

You mean <b> I suppose. It's a different story, but in practice, <em> is
for most practical purposes equivalent to <i>, whereas <strong> is
similarly equivalent to <b>.

> I am asking about this because I'm working with a small team of
> developers on a web app used by our employees in our college system,
> and they are using <b> and <italic> within instructions - neither
> of which is structural or,

(I take it that you mean <i>, not <italic>, which is undefined markup.)

You are correct in principle, but in practice, it's not a big deal. It's
probably better to focus on things that really matter (to accessibility,
or otherwise). I would not teach anyone to use <b> and <i> for any kind
of emphasis, but neither would I try to teach anyone away from such
practice.

> I assume, will convey the intended importance
> to a screen reader user.

Well, that might be a serious issue, but using <strong> and <em> would
not help much, as indicated in this discussion. Such phrase-level markup
does not have much effect on speech rendering, and if it has an effect,
it may depend on software settings.

Thus, anything that really needs to be emphasized is best emphasized
verbally, in document content, optionally accompanied with visual
highlighting (typically, of entire paragraphs).

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2011 2:06PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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Great thread. Thanks. And yes, Jukka, I meant <i> and <b>. :-)
Curious - how do "smiley" faces come across on screen readers?

>

From: subhash chhetri
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2011 5:24AM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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On 10/6/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Can you please tell me what is the difference between how a screen reader
> reads <strong> versus <em>? Does it make a difference which is used if the
> purpose is to convey emphasis?
>
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Hoffman, Allen
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2011 12:48PM
Subject: Re: difference in sounce between <strong> and <em>
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I've never noticed a screen reader using any of these elements to change
pitch, speed, intonation, or other verbal attribute to convey
hierarchical level of emphasis. so, you could consider organization by
header level, use lists, or just italicize things and let readers figure
it out. If the emphasis is critical to the use of the content, e.g. for
the following paragraph, please define the emphasized phrases or words,
then you need to do something textually to ensure such important
information is clearly denoted--which may be something visual, e.g.
actually put in markers such as parenthesis, or some such.