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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Nov 02 2011 8:24PM
Subject: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
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Evening all (or morning, if you are strange enough not to check your
email last thing at night).

I have seen a few PDF discussions on here, and I know Andrew and
others are monitorring it, so I hope a PDF related question is ok.

I have been asked to provide feedback on an opinion pole, produced by
Gallup on behalf of an organization I work for.
The report is in PDF format (originally created from Powerpoint, which
is a very bad idea for accessibility).
After some back and forth with them , and with some good advice, I've
managed to get the report text tagged correctly, and it reads fine
(the people I have communicated with at Gallup were not aware of
accessibility, but they've been very responsive to my suggestions).
As soon as the report gets to the point where the results of the
individual questions are analyzed, the report is, more or less, just a
series of data tables. Currently they are not marked up, and it would
take hours of painstaking screen reading word by word, to get anything
meaningful out of the mess.
What is the current situation regarding tagging data tables in PDF
files. Can they be read at a similar quality and accuracy levels and
corresponding html tables (captions, scope, headings, row titles etc)?
Even with accessible and tagged text, this report is nearly useless
without that work being done, and I worry it would be extensive and
probably enough so that it would behard to convince the company to do
it (though I have not discussed it with them).
Would it be more sensible to suggest they provide said tables in
Word/Excel or HTML formats, or is there a fairly straight-forward way
to tag tables, I am not positive, but I am pretty sure the tagging
takes place inside Adobe Acrobat X.
Thanks for any information on this.
-Birkir

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Nov 02 2011 10:21PM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir,
You can make tables in PDF documents include all of the expected table objects, it doesn't matter whether the document comes from Word, PowerPoint, other applications, or a scanner even. However, there is a difference in the ease of authoring. Powerpoint will give you table tags in the resulting PDF if the standard table object is used, but not headings, which you would need to apply after the pdf is produced. Word can give you the TH tags, but if you create a more complex table from word you may need to add the headers/id or scope information in that PDF.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Nov 03 2011 7:54AM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Andrew

Would you have a sample, properly makrd up table, PDF document for me
to test out?
Can you point to a specific website/chapter on marking up tables
accessibly with Acrobat Pro?
If not, I'll just point to your website ado.com/accessibility, or do
some digging around.
Thank you
-Birkir

On 11/3/11, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Birkir,
> You can make tables in PDF documents include all of the expected table
> objects, it doesn't matter whether the document comes from Word, PowerPoint,
> other applications, or a scanner even. However, there is a difference in
> the ease of authoring. Powerpoint will give you table tags in the resulting
> PDF if the standard table object is used, but not headings, which you would
> need to apply after the pdf is produced. Word can give you the TH tags, but
> if you create a more complex table from word you may need to add the
> headers/id or scope information in that PDF.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>
>
>

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Nov 03 2011 8:48AM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

hi Birkir,

This WCAG 2.0 PDF techniques document may be of use: Using table elements
for table markup in PDF Documents
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf.html#PDF6


regards
SteveF

On 3 November 2011 06:54, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Andrew
>
> Would you have a sample, properly makrd up table, PDF document for me
> to test out?
> Can you point to a specific website/chapter on marking up tables
> accessibly with Acrobat Pro?
> If not, I'll just point to your website ado.com/accessibility, or do
> some digging around.
> Thank you
> -Birkir
>
> On 11/3/11, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Birkir,
> > You can make tables in PDF documents include all of the expected table
> > objects, it doesn't matter whether the document comes from Word,
> PowerPoint,
> > other applications, or a scanner even. However, there is a difference in
> > the ease of authoring. Powerpoint will give you table tags in the
> resulting
> > PDF if the standard table object is used, but not headings, which you
> would
> > need to apply after the pdf is produced. Word can give you the TH tags,
> but
> > if you create a more complex table from word you may need to add the
> > headers/id or scope information in that PDF.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > AWK
> >
> > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> > Adobe Systems
> >
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > http://twitter.com/awkawk
> > http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
> >
> >
> >

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu, Nov 03 2011 8:54AM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir,
Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique includes a working example. http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf


Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility

From: Sébastien Delorme
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2011 5:15AM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir,

Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
Andrew and Steve gave good examples.

Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.

Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
(pages 6 and 7)

In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
- tagging rows, cells and headers,
- linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
an ID).

Regards,

Sébastien Delorme
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
Fax. 09 57 59 77 97

----------------------------------------------------------------

Atalan
Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr

Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info

Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
> Birkir,
> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique includes a working example. http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>
>
>

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2011 3:24PM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Sebastian

Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
this project previously.
I have a problem with the first link example
"tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
average temperatures).
This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
fine).
If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
best practices).
Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
out if there is an issue and what it is.
Thanks again
-Birkir


On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Birkir,
>
> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>
> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>
> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
> (pages 6 and 7)
>
> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
> an ID).
>
> Regards,
>
> Sébastien Delorme
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Atalan
> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>
> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>
> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>> Birkir,
>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>> includes a working example.
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> AWK
>>
>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>> Adobe Systems
>>
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>
>>
>>

From: Kevin Chao
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2011 4:57PM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Adobe Reader X and NVDA 2011.3 Beta 1 is able to see the two tables
and navigate them just fine. There's one issue, which is that when
navigating across/down row/column table/data, NVDA isn't speaking the
table header. Is this an issue with the PDF itself, Adobe Reader X, or
NVDA?
"tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
average temperatures).

Kevin

On 11/7/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Sebastian
>
> Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
> this project previously.
> I have a problem with the first link example
> "tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
> average temperatures).
> This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
> 13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
> works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
> in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
> I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
> with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
> fine).
> If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
> curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
> document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
> best practices).
> Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
> out if there is an issue and what it is.
> Thanks again
> -Birkir
>
>
> On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Birkir,
>>
>> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
>> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>>
>> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>>
>> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
>> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
>> (pages 6 and 7)
>>
>> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
>> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
>> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
>> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
>> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
>> an ID).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sébastien Delorme
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
>> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Atalan
>> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
>> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>>
>> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>>
>> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>>> Birkir,
>>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>>> includes a working example.
>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AWK
>>>
>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>>> Adobe Systems
>>>
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Sébastien Delorme
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2011 5:15PM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Birkir,

I apologize.
The file was not correct (the tagged file was erased by the untagged
file ^^).

I published the correct version.
So if you try now, the two tables (page 6 and 7) are reading by Jaws (I
just tested with Jaws 11).
http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf

I am used to open the French version of this document, so I had not
noticed the problem on the English version. Thank you!

Sébastien Delorme
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
Fax. 09 57 59 77 97

----------------------------------------------------------------

Atalan
Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr

Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info

Le 07/11/2011 23:21, Birkir R. Gunnarsson a écrit :
> Hi Sebastian
>
> Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
> this project previously.
> I have a problem with the first link example
> "tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
> average temperatures).
> This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
> 13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
> works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
> in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
> I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
> with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
> fine).
> If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
> curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
> document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
> best practices).
> Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
> out if there is an issue and what it is.
> Thanks again
> -Birkir
>
>
> On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Birkir,
>>
>> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
>> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>>
>> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>>
>> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
>> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
>> (pages 6 and 7)
>>
>> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
>> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
>> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
>> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
>> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
>> an ID).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sébastien Delorme
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
>> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Atalan
>> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
>> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>>
>> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>>
>> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>>> Birkir,
>>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>>> includes a working example.
>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AWK
>>>
>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>>> Adobe Systems
>>>
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2011 5:21PM
Subject: Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users
← Previous message | No next message

Sebastian

Thank you very much. This table reads beautifully both with NvDA
2011.2 and Jaws 13 (the new table reading feature of Jaws is
absolutely beautiful and works great with this document).
I'll read over this resource, probably front to back, as this seems
exactly the type of training manual I need.
Thanks
-Birkir


On 11/8/11, Sébastien Delorme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Birkir,
>
> I apologize.
> The file was not correct (the tagged file was erased by the untagged
> file ^^).
>
> I published the correct version.
> So if you try now, the two tables (page 6 and 7) are reading by Jaws (I
> just tested with Jaws 11).
> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
>
> I am used to open the French version of this document, so I had not
> noticed the problem on the English version. Thank you!
>
> Sébastien Delorme
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Atalan
> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>
> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>
> Le 07/11/2011 23:21, Birkir R. Gunnarsson a écrit :
>> Hi Sebastian
>>
>> Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
>> this project previously.
>> I have a problem with the first link example
>> "tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
>> average temperatures).
>> This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
>> 13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
>> works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
>> in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
>> I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
>> with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
>> fine).
>> If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
>> curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
>> document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
>> best practices).
>> Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
>> out if there is an issue and what it is.
>> Thanks again
>> -Birkir
>>
>>
>> On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Birkir,
>>>
>>> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
>>> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>>>
>>> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>>>
>>> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
>>> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
>>> (pages 6 and 7)
>>>
>>> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
>>> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
>>> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
>>> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
>>> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
>>> an ID).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Sébastien Delorme
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>
>>> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
>>> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Atalan
>>> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
>>> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>>>
>>> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>>>
>>> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>>>> Birkir,
>>>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>>>> includes a working example.
>>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> AWK
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>>>> Adobe Systems
>>>>
>>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>