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Thread: Screen Shots and A11y
Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)
From: ckrugman
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 4:49AM
Subject: Screen Shots and A11y
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in my experience as a screen reader user screen shots have little value as
they are an image that is not readable. The only value that they have is for
me to demonstrate an inaccessible web page to a developer or sight master
when I am using their site.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] Screen Shots and A11y
> Hi,
>
> My web site often has screen shots of pages as an introduction to some new
> functionality, in addition to describing the functionality in the
> accompanying text. The screen shots are meant to familiarize users with
> how
> the service might look if they were to sign up for it. However, this is
> very visually-oriented. I don't think there's even a very practical way of
> describing a screen shot in ALT text. Or at least, ALT text wouldn't
> provide the same purpose as the screen shot, which is specifically to show
> the user what it will look like.
>
> Would screen shots be considered "decorative" and therefore be given null
> ALT text? Or should there be a completely different strategy that would
> take the place of a screen shot for users that are unable to see it?
>
> Thanks,
> David Ashleydale
> > >
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 5:41AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi
Agree that screenshots are not very helpful to the screenreader user.
However, I have had problems making sure, when I deliver an
accessibility evaluation, that there is no ambiguity for the sighted
site developer, where I am encountering an issue (especially on a
large site).
After all, I can't use a language like "the red square logo on the
bottom left of the screen only works with the mouse", not without
sighted assistance.
I use XPath currently to mark the piece of code I am referring to,
which is helpful for the developers, but I need to find out if there
is a way to paste an XPath query into a browser and have the browser
automatically highlight that section or page element, ideally
something that could be done very easily.
I have been playing around with Firebug for Firefox, nd you can easily
get the XPath of the element from there.
However I am not sure what happens when you past the XPath expression back in.
Cheers
-B
On 6/10/13, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> in my experience as a screen reader user screen shots have little value as
> they are an image that is not readable. The only value that they have is for
>
> me to demonstrate an inaccessible web page to a developer or sight master
> when I am using their site.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:32 PM
> Subject: [WebAIM] Screen Shots and A11y
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My web site often has screen shots of pages as an introduction to some
>> new
>> functionality, in addition to describing the functionality in the
>> accompanying text. The screen shots are meant to familiarize users with
>> how
>> the service might look if they were to sign up for it. However, this is
>> very visually-oriented. I don't think there's even a very practical way
>> of
>> describing a screen shot in ALT text. Or at least, ALT text wouldn't
>> provide the same purpose as the screen shot, which is specifically to
>> show
>> the user what it will look like.
>>
>> Would screen shots be considered "decorative" and therefore be given null
>> ALT text? Or should there be a completely different strategy that would
>> take the place of a screen shot for users that are unable to see it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David Ashleydale
>> >> >> >
> > > >
From: Dave Merrill
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 6:22AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
An xpath representation of the object you're referring to is very specific,
which is good, but its specificity also makes it very fragile. It's very
possible for otherwise unimportant changes, even invisible ones, to break
it, or make it refer to the wrong element.
As a developer myself, I'd think a text description would be best, and
possibly a screenshot. However, I'm sighted. If I wasn't, this
communication would be more difficult, but me thinking that may just be a
reflection of not having dealt with it all day every day for a long time.
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi
>
> Agree that screenshots are not very helpful to the screenreader user.
> However, I have had problems making sure, when I deliver an
> accessibility evaluation, that there is no ambiguity for the sighted
> site developer, where I am encountering an issue (especially on a
> large site).
> After all, I can't use a language like "the red square logo on the
> bottom left of the screen only works with the mouse", not without
> sighted assistance.
> I use XPath currently to mark the piece of code I am referring to,
> which is helpful for the developers, but I need to find out if there
> is a way to paste an XPath query into a browser and have the browser
> automatically highlight that section or page element, ideally
> something that could be done very easily.
> I have been playing around with Firebug for Firefox, nd you can easily
> get the XPath of the element from there.
> However I am not sure what happens when you past the XPath expression back
> in.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 6/10/13, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > in my experience as a screen reader user screen shots have little value
> as
> > they are an image that is not readable. The only value that they have is
> for
> >
> > me to demonstrate an inaccessible web page to a developer or sight master
> > when I am using their site.
> > Chuck
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:32 PM
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Screen Shots and A11y
> >
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> My web site often has screen shots of pages as an introduction to some
> >> new
> >> functionality, in addition to describing the functionality in the
> >> accompanying text. The screen shots are meant to familiarize users with
> >> how
> >> the service might look if they were to sign up for it. However, this is
> >> very visually-oriented. I don't think there's even a very practical way
> >> of
> >> describing a screen shot in ALT text. Or at least, ALT text wouldn't
> >> provide the same purpose as the screen shot, which is specifically to
> >> show
> >> the user what it will look like.
> >>
> >> Would screen shots be considered "decorative" and therefore be given
> null
> >> ALT text? Or should there be a completely different strategy that would
> >> take the place of a screen shot for users that are unable to see it?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> David Ashleydale
> >> > >> > >> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
--
Dave Merrill
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 6:33AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Dave
Good points.
Ideally I'd like to combine all 3 elements here:
Find the XPath to the element or section of the site that is giving me problems.
Be able to highlight it using the XPath and then take a screen shot
(that way the developer or admin gets a screenshot of the page at the
time I discovered the problem, with a visual indicator).
Then I provide a text description as well.
The question is to what extent I can use this technique, i.e. can I
somehow highlight a section of a page that I point to via an XPath,
the rest is fairly straight-forward I think.
I'll check with me colleagues re Firebug in this regard, may be that's
all that's needed.
Cheers
-B
On 6/10/13, Dave Merrill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> An xpath representation of the object you're referring to is very specific,
> which is good, but its specificity also makes it very fragile. It's very
> possible for otherwise unimportant changes, even invisible ones, to break
> it, or make it refer to the wrong element.
>
> As a developer myself, I'd think a text description would be best, and
> possibly a screenshot. However, I'm sighted. If I wasn't, this
> communication would be more difficult, but me thinking that may just be a
> reflection of not having dealt with it all day every day for a long time.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Agree that screenshots are not very helpful to the screenreader user.
>> However, I have had problems making sure, when I deliver an
>> accessibility evaluation, that there is no ambiguity for the sighted
>> site developer, where I am encountering an issue (especially on a
>> large site).
>> After all, I can't use a language like "the red square logo on the
>> bottom left of the screen only works with the mouse", not without
>> sighted assistance.
>> I use XPath currently to mark the piece of code I am referring to,
>> which is helpful for the developers, but I need to find out if there
>> is a way to paste an XPath query into a browser and have the browser
>> automatically highlight that section or page element, ideally
>> something that could be done very easily.
>> I have been playing around with Firebug for Firefox, nd you can easily
>> get the XPath of the element from there.
>> However I am not sure what happens when you past the XPath expression
>> back
>> in.
>> Cheers
>> -B
>>
>> On 6/10/13, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > in my experience as a screen reader user screen shots have little value
>> as
>> > they are an image that is not readable. The only value that they have
>> > is
>> for
>> >
>> > me to demonstrate an inaccessible web page to a developer or sight
>> > master
>> > when I am using their site.
>> > Chuck
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:32 PM
>> > Subject: [WebAIM] Screen Shots and A11y
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> My web site often has screen shots of pages as an introduction to some
>> >> new
>> >> functionality, in addition to describing the functionality in the
>> >> accompanying text. The screen shots are meant to familiarize users
>> >> with
>> >> how
>> >> the service might look if they were to sign up for it. However, this
>> >> is
>> >> very visually-oriented. I don't think there's even a very practical
>> >> way
>> >> of
>> >> describing a screen shot in ALT text. Or at least, ALT text wouldn't
>> >> provide the same purpose as the screen shot, which is specifically to
>> >> show
>> >> the user what it will look like.
>> >>
>> >> Would screen shots be considered "decorative" and therefore be given
>> null
>> >> ALT text? Or should there be a completely different strategy that
>> >> would
>> >> take the place of a screen shot for users that are unable to see it?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> David Ashleydale
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Merrill
> > > >
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 11:32AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello:
I have started recording my interactions with screen capture software so
the dev. can watch me hit the problem and get the impact of the good and
bad on these pages I won't recommend the software I am using yet because
its misbehaving badly write now. But when I have the system down pat I can
report back how it works if there is interest. Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces
From: Greg Gamble
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 11:48AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
I'd be very interested in this, especially when you're traversing a form with validation.
Greg Gamble
SBCTC - Olympia | Information Services
From: McMorland, Gabriel
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 11:52AM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Great web aim guide to accessible images:
http://webaim.org/techniques/images/
I think that choosing the right alt-text depends very much on the context of the specific image. So, it's not possible to caterogically say that all screen shots are either decorative or informative.
The original post in this thread mentions that the body text of the web page describes the functionality depicted in the screen shots. Two questions:
Does the body text accurately convey the information you want users to understand?
-What do blind users need to know about the "look and feel" of your new features? As a blind person, I can tell you that I do care very much about the look and feel of some content, such as options for a marketing brochure advertising a program I'm involved with, but I don't care at all about the look and feel of sites such as my online banking account or a new feature on facebook.
From: Dave Merrill
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 12:03PM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Haven't used any of these, but there are browser add-ons that may be
helpful for seeing what element a saved xpath expression points to.
For Firefox:
- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/firepath/
-
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-Us/firefox/addon/firefinder-for-firebug/?src=search
For Chrome:
-
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/xpath-helper/hgimnogjllphhhkhlmebbmlgjoejdpjl?hl=en
-
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/xpath-viewer/oemacabgcknpcikelclomjajcdpbilpf?hl=en
There are others too.
Dave Merrill
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Dave
>
> Good points.
> Ideally I'd like to combine all 3 elements here:
> Find the XPath to the element or section of the site that is giving me
> problems.
> Be able to highlight it using the XPath and then take a screen shot
> (that way the developer or admin gets a screenshot of the page at the
> time I discovered the problem, with a visual indicator).
> Then I provide a text description as well.
>
> The question is to what extent I can use this technique, i.e. can I
> somehow highlight a section of a page that I point to via an XPath,
> the rest is fairly straight-forward I think.
> I'll check with me colleagues re Firebug in this regard, may be that's
> all that's needed.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 6/10/13, Dave Merrill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > An xpath representation of the object you're referring to is very
> specific,
> > which is good, but its specificity also makes it very fragile. It's very
> > possible for otherwise unimportant changes, even invisible ones, to break
> > it, or make it refer to the wrong element.
> >
> > As a developer myself, I'd think a text description would be best, and
> > possibly a screenshot. However, I'm sighted. If I wasn't, this
> > communication would be more difficult, but me thinking that may just be a
> > reflection of not having dealt with it all day every day for a long time.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 7:41 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Agree that screenshots are not very helpful to the screenreader user.
> >> However, I have had problems making sure, when I deliver an
> >> accessibility evaluation, that there is no ambiguity for the sighted
> >> site developer, where I am encountering an issue (especially on a
> >> large site).
> >> After all, I can't use a language like "the red square logo on the
> >> bottom left of the screen only works with the mouse", not without
> >> sighted assistance.
> >> I use XPath currently to mark the piece of code I am referring to,
> >> which is helpful for the developers, but I need to find out if there
> >> is a way to paste an XPath query into a browser and have the browser
> >> automatically highlight that section or page element, ideally
> >> something that could be done very easily.
> >> I have been playing around with Firebug for Firefox, nd you can easily
> >> get the XPath of the element from there.
> >> However I am not sure what happens when you past the XPath expression
> >> back
> >> in.
> >> Cheers
> >> -B
> >>
> >> On 6/10/13, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> > in my experience as a screen reader user screen shots have little
> value
> >> as
> >> > they are an image that is not readable. The only value that they have
> >> > is
> >> for
> >> >
> >> > me to demonstrate an inaccessible web page to a developer or sight
> >> > master
> >> > when I am using their site.
> >> > Chuck
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 2:32 PM
> >> > Subject: [WebAIM] Screen Shots and A11y
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> My web site often has screen shots of pages as an introduction to
> some
> >> >> new
> >> >> functionality, in addition to describing the functionality in the
> >> >> accompanying text. The screen shots are meant to familiarize users
> >> >> with
> >> >> how
> >> >> the service might look if they were to sign up for it. However, this
> >> >> is
> >> >> very visually-oriented. I don't think there's even a very practical
> >> >> way
> >> >> of
> >> >> describing a screen shot in ALT text. Or at least, ALT text wouldn't
> >> >> provide the same purpose as the screen shot, which is specifically to
> >> >> show
> >> >> the user what it will look like.
> >> >>
> >> >> Would screen shots be considered "decorative" and therefore be given
> >> null
> >> >> ALT text? Or should there be a completely different strategy that
> >> >> would
> >> >> take the place of a screen shot for users that are unable to see it?
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> David Ashleydale
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Merrill
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
--
Dave Merrill
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 12:00PM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | Next message →
Ok I will send you a sample when the software stops crashing smile Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces
From: David Ashleydale
Date: Mon, Jun 10 2013 12:16PM
Subject: Re: Screen Shots and A11y
← Previous message | No next message
Hi Gabriel,
Since my original posting last year, our strategy has been to write
demo/tour pages like this all in text first. Then, once the writers are
satisfied that the written content says everything they want to say, they
can add images like screen shots to enhance the page visually.The screen
shots will not add any new content, but they are there to visually orient
sighted people that learn better by seeing than by reading.
However, I'm still in discussions with the people that create demos and
tours to see if there are ways to go beyond giving people screen shots of
new features on pages. The ideal solution to me, would be to give all users
access to real prototypes of new sites and features that they can interact
with and try out.
For example, we have a page on our site that shows customers what a typical
account statement looks like. The text next to the screen shot of the
statement describes the various features and functionalities that can be
found on the statement. This is all well and good, but I'm trying to get
them to put a link to an actual statement (with fake data) so that users
can open it up, read it, and interact with it. That would provide a better
experience to everyone.
Thanks,
David
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:52 AM, McMorland, Gabriel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Great web aim guide to accessible images:
> http://webaim.org/techniques/images/
>
> I think that choosing the right alt-text depends very much on the context
> of the specific image. So, it's not possible to caterogically say that all
> screen shots are either decorative or informative.
> The original post in this thread mentions that the body text of the web
> page describes the functionality depicted in the screen shots. Two
> questions:
> Does the body text accurately convey the information you want users to
> understand?
> -What do blind users need to know about the "look and feel" of your new
> features? As a blind person, I can tell you that I do care very much about
> the look and feel of some content, such as options for a marketing brochure
> advertising a program I'm involved with, but I don't care at all about the
> look and feel of sites such as my online banking account or a new feature
> on facebook.
>
>
>
>
>