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Thread: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
Number of posts in this thread: 19 (In chronological order)
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 1:56PM
Subject: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
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Hello:
We would like to give users of our campus accessible templates the
ability to use an expandable and collapsible content area. Attached is the
demo of what we have come up with so far. It works great in NVDA and not
so good in jaws.
The problem we have found in jaws is that jaws only indicates the
expansion happens the first time the expand is clicked. In fact if you go
back to the page a second time it won't say anything ever again. When this
first happened I thought I was losing my mind but I tested on another
computer and the same thing happened. My instinct is that jaws is the bad
player in this game. Can someone else confirm this and if anyone on this
list is on the jaws beta team could you file this as a bug. I am really
getting fed up with AT that does not implement standards appropriately.
It's hard enough to get developers to code to standers and then when the
AT does not work to the standers it's even harder. My new year's
resolution is to shame AT products that don't come up to the mark more
grin Lucy Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 2:13PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Lucy
I am able to use Jaws reliably on this demo page I came up with with
Detlev Fisher, one that is on his site at:
http://www.3needs.org/en/testing/code/aria-expanded.html#
I can check the demo later on, and if this is a bug I would be happy
to help you file it. I am on the Jaws beta team, though I am not very
active.
On 1/8/14, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Sorry about that here is the demo
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 2:18PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Great please do test and remember it works the first time you open the
expand just not after that
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 2:24PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
The script is missing a preventDefault() which may be contributing to the
problem. This should be added to prevent page refreshing whenever DOM level
dynamic content is rendered via a triggering element.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Great please do test and remember it works the first time you open the
> expand just not after that
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 3:53PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
It works fine for me. I tested it using JAWS15 in IE 8 9 and 10 and FF, and it's not having any problems. I also refreshed the page, reloaded the url, and again that works too.
Which version of JAWS, browser, and OS are you seeing this on?
----- Original Message -----
From: cb
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
Thanks for the feedback. The trigger function now includes
preventDefault(). Unfortunately it didn't solve Lucy's problem though.
A new version is attached in case anyone with Jaws wants to try to
duplicate what she's experiencing.
Caroline
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Bryan Garaventa
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> The script is missing a preventDefault() which may be contributing to the
> problem. This should be added to prevent page refreshing whenever DOM level
> dynamic content is rendered via a triggering element.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
>
>
>> Great please do test and remember it works the first time you open the
>> expand just not after that
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Access Analyst
>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:07PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Testing this with Jaws 15 and FF24, I observed the following.
Clicking expand/collapse links works consistently every time.
If a section is expanded and I refresh the page, the section
collapses. That is not a Jaws problem, it collapses also visually in
the browser.
Is this the root of the problem Lucy?
We can get to the bottom of this.
Thanks
-Birkir
Accessibility SME | Deque Systems
On 1/8/14, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It works fine for me. I tested it using JAWS15 in IE 8 9 and 10 and FF, and
> it's not having any problems. I also refreshed the page, reloaded the url,
> and again that works too.
>
> Which version of JAWS, browser, and OS are you seeing this on?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cb
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file
> it
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback. The trigger function now includes
> preventDefault(). Unfortunately it didn't solve Lucy's problem though.
> A new version is attached in case anyone with Jaws wants to try to
> duplicate what she's experiencing.
>
> Caroline
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Bryan Garaventa
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > The script is missing a preventDefault() which may be contributing to
> the
> > problem. This should be added to prevent page refreshing whenever DOM
> level
> > dynamic content is rendered via a triggering element.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file
> it
> >
> >
> >> Great please do test and remember it works the first time you open the
> >> expand just not after that
> >>
> >> Lucia Greco
> >> Web Access Analyst
> >> IST-Campus Technology Services
> >> University of California, Berkeley
> >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> >>
> >>
> >>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:08PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
We tried it in jaws 15 latest version and ff same. Have not tried in i.e.
yet. I sent the file to an fs tech rep and he had the same result I did.
So when your clicking the expand jaws tells you it expanded and closed and
no matter how many times you clicked it told you the state change.
Interesting could you give me a phone call to go over this by chance
thanks Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:12PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello:
We want the link to expand and claps as many times as the user clicks it
the problem is that jaws is not telling the user that it is expanding or
collapsing at all after the first time I click the link or even on the
second sample on the page. With nvda I click the link and it says expanded
or collapse to indicate the change.
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:27PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Ok I just tested in i.e. 10 and found a different but similar problem.
When I tab to the link and click it will speak the state change but if I
click it again it does not tell me that the state changed back. We want
the link to change whenever the user clicks it and it does do so but jaws
needs to say witch state it is currently in.
And if I keep clicking it never tells me that the state changes. The
difference in i.e. to ff is that I can tab away and back again and it
will tell me once again the state change but only the first state change
to get it to tell me I can't click the link without tabbing away from the
link.
Also I think it's not controllable but in i.e. the user does not have any
way to go to the focused text that has been opened like in Firefox I think
that's a known jaws thing.
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:39PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello:
Again just as a quick ask should voice over support the speaking of the
expand state and or tell you it does not on my system. Mavericks most
recent versions again Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 4:56PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
I see what you mean. I agree that the state should be conveyed when the
focused element changes programmatically.
The problem is that this should only happen when the state changes on the
element that currently has focus. Or in JAWS' case, the element that sounds
like it has focus where the Virtual Cursor is pointing.
This is easier to accomplish in NVDA, because as you arrow down the page in
Browse Mode, everything that you hear is given focus.
In JAWS though, focus may be on another element on the page, and as you
arrow down the page, keyboard focus is not moved to the element you are
hearing.
It should be possible for FS to do it, but they will need to make sure that
when state changes on other elements on the page as part of a configuration
script for instance, that all of their states are not automatically
announced at the same time as well, which would sort of defeat the purpose.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Ok I just tested in i.e. 10 and found a different but similar problem.
> When I tab to the link and click it will speak the state change but if I
> click it again it does not tell me that the state changed back. We want
> the link to change whenever the user clicks it and it does do so but jaws
> needs to say witch state it is currently in.
> And if I keep clicking it never tells me that the state changes. The
> difference in i.e. to ff is that I can tab away and back again and it
> will tell me once again the state change but only the first state change
> to get it to tell me I can't click the link without tabbing away from the
> link.
> Also I think it's not controllable but in i.e. the user does not have any
> way to go to the focused text that has been opened like in Firefox I think
> that's a known jaws thing.
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:01PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Answers inline
I see what you mean. I agree that the state should be conveyed when the
focused element changes programmatically.
The problem is that this should only happen when the state changes on the
element that currently has focus. Or in JAWS' case, the element that
sounds
like it has focus where the Virtual Cursor is pointing.
[] lg yes but in this demo the focus for the keyboard stays on the expand
not it does not move the focus as far as I can tell if I use speak current
line it reads the expand link
I
This is easier to accomplish in NVDA, because as you arrow down the page
in
Browse Mode, everything that you hear is given focus.
In JAWS though, focus may be on another element on the page, and as you
arrow down the page, keyboard focus is not moved to the element you are
hearing.
It should be possible for FS to do it, but they will need to make sure
that
when state changes on other elements on the page as part of a
configuration
script for instance, that all of their states are not automatically
announced at the same time as well, which would sort of defeat the
purpose.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Ok I just tested in i.e. 10 and found a different but similar problem.
> When I tab to the link and click it will speak the state change but if I
> click it again it does not tell me that the state changed back. We want
> the link to change whenever the user clicks it and it does do so but
jaws
> needs to say witch state it is currently in.
> And if I keep clicking it never tells me that the state changes. The
> difference in i.e. to ff is that I can tab away and back again and it
> will tell me once again the state change but only the first state change
> to get it to tell me I can't click the link without tabbing away from
the
> link.
> Also I think it's not controllable but in i.e. the user does not have
any
> way to go to the focused text that has been opened like in Firefox I
think
> that's a known jaws thing.
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:01PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
It's supposed to. If it doesn't and you have a code sample that you can use
to demonstrate the problem, it's worth submitting to Apple.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Hello:
> Again just as a quick ask should voice over support the speaking of the
> expand state and or tell you it does not on my system. Mavericks most
> recent versions again Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:07PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Well this code sample is the one I have do you think its worth sending if
so please send me wear to submit it Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:09PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
I understand, this has been a problem in JAWS going back many years, though
it's been getting better over the years as well.
It has to do with JAWS's ability to recognize dynamic content changes in the
DOM. In this case, it's a specific state change in the accessibility tree
that JAWS is failing to recognize.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Answers inline
>
> I see what you mean. I agree that the state should be conveyed when the
> focused element changes programmatically.
>
> The problem is that this should only happen when the state changes on the
> element that currently has focus. Or in JAWS' case, the element that
> sounds
> like it has focus where the Virtual Cursor is pointing.
> [] lg yes but in this demo the focus for the keyboard stays on the expand
> not it does not move the focus as far as I can tell if I use speak current
> line it reads the expand link
> I
> This is easier to accomplish in NVDA, because as you arrow down the page
> in
> Browse Mode, everything that you hear is given focus.
>
> In JAWS though, focus may be on another element on the page, and as you
> arrow down the page, keyboard focus is not moved to the element you are
> hearing.
>
> It should be possible for FS to do it, but they will need to make sure
> that
> when state changes on other elements on the page as part of a
> configuration
> script for instance, that all of their states are not automatically
> announced at the same time as well, which would sort of defeat the
> purpose.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 3:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
>
>
>> Ok I just tested in i.e. 10 and found a different but similar problem.
>> When I tab to the link and click it will speak the state change but if I
>> click it again it does not tell me that the state changed back. We want
>> the link to change whenever the user clicks it and it does do so but
> jaws
>> needs to say witch state it is currently in.
>> And if I keep clicking it never tells me that the state changes. The
>> difference in i.e. to ff is that I can tab away and back again and it
>> will tell me once again the state change but only the first state change
>> to get it to tell me I can't click the link without tabbing away from
> the
>> link.
>> Also I think it's not controllable but in i.e. the user does not have
> any
>> way to go to the focused text that has been opened like in Firefox I
> think
>> that's a known jaws thing.
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Access Analyst
>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:12PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Ok so this gives burker a lot of ammunition to file the bug then thanks
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:12PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
You may wish to ping James Craig = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = to see if this is already
an open bug or not.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucy Greco" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
> Well this code sample is the one I have do you think its worth sending if
> so please send me wear to submit it Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 5:15PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Jan 08 2014 8:40PM
Subject: Re: a possible jaws bug and if it is can someone file it
← Previous message | No next message
Hey guys
I will look into this tomorrow for sure.
I will contact you off-list Lucy.
Cheers
On 1/8/14, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
>