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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 4:01AM
Subject: Accessibility and web applications
No previous message | Next message →

Hello all.

I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.

The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.

The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.

In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.

That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.

Thoughts?

Todd.

From: lists@srinivasu.org
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 4:06AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with you. Perhaps instead of every field, a notice would be good at the top of the form as an instruction.

Regards,
Srinivasu Chakravarthula | PayPal | @csrinivasu
Sent from my iPhone 5C

> On 02-Apr-2014, at 15:31, "Liko, Todd" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 4:18AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a
confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user
has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be
lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > >


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 8:42AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 9:18AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it' if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within reason of course.

The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best one.

Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user selects a link.

Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will recommend.

Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not require javascript to be on?

Thanks again all.

Todd.
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 10:55AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

My only concern is that if the user is leaving the page and the page is displaying something to sighted users, it needs to be spoken to the screen reading user. If I am not understanding this correctly I apologize, but I am convinced that the user needs to know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Liko, Todd [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 9:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it' if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within reason of course.

The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best one.

Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user selects a link.

Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will recommend.

Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not require javascript to be on?

Thanks again all.

Todd.
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Weissenberger, Todd M
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 12:43PM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

Todd,



It seems to me that an interface like this should at least include guidance and instruction to the user, regardless of whether such notice is required.



It might be open to interpretation whether G168 applies, since success criterion 3.3.4 also applies to web pages that "that modify or delete user-controllable<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#user-controllabledef>; data in data storage systems". Moreover, Situation B, one of the places where G168 is cited as a sufficient technique, applies "If an action causes information to be deleted." To me, this raises the question of whether uncommitted user inputs are "information" and following a link is an "action"; I'm sure it seems that way when multiple form inputs are reset. At a higher level, Guideline 3.3 simply reads, "Help users avoid and correct mistakes.". At the very least, some kind of message to the user would seem to make sense here.



You didn't mention what platform this is in, but I assume the form is generated server-side and delivered to the user from the database. If that's the case, providing instruction to the user should be a trivial matter.



Todd W.



-----Original Message-----
From: Liko, Todd [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications



Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it' if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within reason of course.



The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best one.



Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user selects a link.



Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will recommend.



Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not require javascript to be on?



Thanks again all.



Todd.


From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications



I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.

-----Original Message-----

From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM

To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications



Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like



confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");



P



On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:

> Hello all.

>

> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.

>

> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.

>

> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.

>

> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.

>

> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.

>

> Thoughts?

>

> Todd.

>

>

>
> > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

>





--

Patrick H. Lauke



www.splintered.co.uk<;http://www.splintered.co.uk>; | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com

twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 12:53PM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

Don,

From the original description, it sounds like the user interface fails to inform all users that the data will be lossed if the user navigates to another part of the user interface.

Todd,

I definitely think it would be helpful to warn users they would lose data by navigating to other pages, but I see this as a usability issue. I actually like Patrick's idea the best. It is possible for a user to miss a message on the page, but it would be difficult for the user to miss a dialog. While Patrick's method requires using something like javascript, I don't think that should present a problem unless your site design is based on a requirement that features should work without javascript.

Another question you might want to ask yourself is how much of a usability issue is this? Why would users navigate away from the form? Would those reasons involve returning to the form to complete it? If some users are finding they need to navigate to other parts of the site in order to be able to complete the form, then that is probably a pretty important usability issue to solve. And a better way to solve that kind of problem might be to include the information they need on the page. If a user navigates away from the form because they lose interest or just decide to locate other information on the site, that would be a different kind of usability problem--and including instructions that the user will lose their data on the page probably won't do much to resolve the problem.

----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

My only concern is that if the user is leaving the page and the page is displaying something to sighted users, it needs to be spoken to the screen reading user. If I am not understanding this correctly I apologize, but I am convinced that the user needs to know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Liko, Todd [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 9:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it' if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within reason of course.

The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best one.

Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user selects a link.

Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will recommend.

Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not require javascript to be on?

Thanks again all.

Todd.
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 1:49PM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | Next message →

Ok, I thought that users were seeing a message.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 12:54 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Don,

From the original description, it sounds like the user interface fails to inform all users that the data will be lossed if the user navigates to another part of the user interface.

Todd,

I definitely think it would be helpful to warn users they would lose data by navigating to other pages, but I see this as a usability issue. I actually like Patrick's idea the best. It is possible for a user to miss a message on the page, but it would be difficult for the user to miss a dialog. While Patrick's method requires using something like javascript, I don't think that should present a problem unless your site design is based on a requirement that features should work without javascript.

Another question you might want to ask yourself is how much of a usability issue is this? Why would users navigate away from the form? Would those reasons involve returning to the form to complete it? If some users are finding they need to navigate to other parts of the site in order to be able to complete the form, then that is probably a pretty important usability issue to solve. And a better way to solve that kind of problem might be to include the information they need on the page. If a user navigates away from the form because they lose interest or just decide to locate other information on the site, that would be a different kind of usability problem--and including instructions that the user will lose their data on the page probably won't do much to resolve the problem.

----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

My only concern is that if the user is leaving the page and the page is displaying something to sighted users, it needs to be spoken to the screen reading user. If I am not understanding this correctly I apologize, but I am convinced that the user needs to know.
-----Original Message-----
From: Liko, Todd [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 9:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it' if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within reason of course.

The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best one.

Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user selects a link.

Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will recommend.

Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not require javascript to be on?

Thanks again all.

Todd.
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when requesting to leave the page.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications

Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any new data, and if so on unload bring up something like

confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be lost.");

P

On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am hoping to get some feedback in here.
>
> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to save that information into a database. The application contains a left hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the database.
>
> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every details page, warning the user that the information input will not be saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained, should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many links navigated away from the page.
>
> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a usability issue. The help file for the application does mention information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>
> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a courtesy than a requirement.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Todd.
>
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Apr 02 2014 6:54PM
Subject: Re: Accessibility and web applications
← Previous message | No next message

If sighted users see any type of indication on the page, that
information must be communicated to all end users, including users of
assistive technologies.
Not doing so would be an accessibility violation. The precise manner
of how this information is visually communicated would determine the
applicable WCAG success criteria.

If no user gets such a warning, allowing them to leave a half finished
message or form and lose all their data is a usability issue, not an
accessibility issue, (everyone gets equally screwed, that is also
accessibility, albeit in reverse).

If you start composing an email message in GMail (I prefer the basic
html interface still) and then navigate to a different page in the
middle of your message, you will get an alert dialog.
I would recommend that for any form that user is expected to have put
more than a couple of minutes work into and then leaves (this is my
gut instinct, not a WCAG requirement), the user should definitely
receive a warning.

If the form consists of less than 10 simple form controls that it
would take a user 2 minutes or less to fill in, I think it is the call
of the website author.
If this is just a "username and password" type page, I would find a
message from such a page invasive and would degrade my user experience
of that site.
The WebAIM screen reader survey showed that close to 99% of
correspondants have JavaScript turned on.
It is the default for most browsers, and people would have to really
go out of their way to have a set up where JavaScript is not enabled.
But if the application has those requirements, that is a valid
decision on their part. Just make sure they do not do that because
they believe it would improve the accessibility experience.
hth
-B
Birkir Gunnarsson
Accessibility SME | Deque Systems



On 4/2/14, Don Mauck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Ok, I thought that users were seeing a message.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 12:54 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications
>
> Don,
>
> From the original description, it sounds like the user interface fails to
> inform all users that the data will be lossed if the user navigates to
> another part of the user interface.
>
> Todd,
>
> I definitely think it would be helpful to warn users they would lose data by
> navigating to other pages, but I see this as a usability issue. I actually
> like Patrick's idea the best. It is possible for a user to miss a message
> on the page, but it would be difficult for the user to miss a dialog. While
> Patrick's method requires using something like javascript, I don't think
> that should present a problem unless your site design is based on a
> requirement that features should work without javascript.
>
> Another question you might want to ask yourself is how much of a usability
> issue is this? Why would users navigate away from the form? Would those
> reasons involve returning to the form to complete it? If some users are
> finding they need to navigate to other parts of the site in order to be able
> to complete the form, then that is probably a pretty important usability
> issue to solve. And a better way to solve that kind of problem might be to
> include the information they need on the page. If a user navigates away
> from the form because they lose interest or just decide to locate other
> information on the site, that would be a different kind of usability
> problem--and including instructions that the user will lose their data on
> the page probably won't do much to resolve the problem.
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:55 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications
>
> My only concern is that if the user is leaving the page and the page is
> displaying something to sighted users, it needs to be spoken to the screen
> reading user. If I am not understanding this correctly I apologize, but I
> am convinced that the user needs to know.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Liko, Todd [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 9:18 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications
>
> Thank you all for your replies. So far there has not been any common
> opinions, which is to be expected. Some clients want a black and white
> answer, as in, do I have to do it. I am not a proponent of 'do I have to it'
> if it adds functionality, usability and accessibility to a page, within
> reason of course.
>
> The decision on how to move forward will be mine, so I hope to make the best
> one.
>
> Don Mauck: I see your point, however, the application does not handle legal
> commitments or financial transactions. G168 says the technique is to seek
> confirmation from the user that the selected action is his or her intended
> action. I interpret this to apply to action buttons such as submit and so
> on. Surely, I would not expect to have to apply this everytime the user
> selects a link.
>
> Srinivasu Chakravarthula: I agree with your suggesting to adding it as an
> instruction, the question is it required. This is probably the option I will
> recommend.
>
> Patrick H. Lauke: Your suggestion of adding a window.onunload event handler
> is interesting. I am not a web application programmer, but would this not
> require javascript to be on?
>
> Thanks again all.
>
> Todd.
> > From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Don Mauck
> [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: April 2, 2014 10:42 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications
>
> I do think this could fall under WCAG2.0 3.3.4, quite possibly (G168). I
> believe that if the visual user can see it on the screen the screen reader
> needs to read that as well. Many, many web pages do give an error when
> requesting to leave the page.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:18 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility and web applications
>
> Perhaps adding a window.onunload event handler that brings up a confirmation
> dialog may be of use? Keep track of whether or not a user has entered any
> new data, and if so on unload bring up something like
>
> confirm("If you leave this page without saving, your changes will be
> lost.");
>
> P
>
> On 02/04/2014 11:01, Liko, Todd wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I have a colleague who came to me for advice about his web application. He
>> has already received advice from another individual and is looking for a
>> second opinion. My opinion differs from the other individual's. I am
>> hoping to get some feedback in here.
>>
>> The web application in question has a details screen where one can update
>> the information about an employee and then click on the 'Save' button to
>> save that information into a database. The application contains a left
>> hand navigation menu and mega menu. If the information is not saved before
>> navigating away from the page, the information will not be saved to the
>> database.
>>
>> The other individual is saying my colleague must include a notice on every
>> details page, warning the user that the information input will not be
>> saved if they navigate away from the page before clicking 'Save'. In
>> addition, if that happens, any information entered must be retained,
>> should the user come back to the details page, regardless of how many
>> links navigated away from the page.
>>
>> In my opinion, this is not an accessibility issue as much as it is a
>> usability issue. The help file for the application does mention
>> information must be saved before navigating away from the details page. I
>> also believe the user is making a conscious decision to navigate away from
>> the page and retaining the information entered is not required.
>>
>> That being said, if providing this notice can be done without
>> re-engineering the application, my advice is to do it, but it is more of a
>> courtesy than a requirement.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Todd.
>>
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>
>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.