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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 3:06PM
Subject: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property
in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data tables
with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be able
to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with a
table as they do in web based tables.
-Devarshi

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 3:13PM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Hi Davarshi,

if that's an option - fix the problem on the editorial level to ensure that not just JAWS users benefit from it. One option to fix it would be to make the description of the table part of the regular page content.

An alternate description in PDF is intended to complement "items that do not translate naturally into text". Photos, illustrations etc. come to mind, but usually not tables.


Olaf


On 7 Jul 2014, at 23:06, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property
> in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data tables
> with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be able
> to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with a
> table as they do in web based tables.
> -Devarshi

From: Loretta Guarino Reid
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 7:41PM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Alternate Text is meant to be the text replacement for an image that just
contains text. It is different from Alt in that it is considered part of
the surrounding text, possibly part of a word. If you provide an Alternate
Text property for a <Table>, the table will be completely invisible to the
screen reader.


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property
> in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data tables
> with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be able
> to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with a
> table as they do in web based tables.
> -Devarshi
> > > >

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 8:02PM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Hi Olaf,
"An alternate description in PDF is intended to complement "items that do
not translate naturally into text". Photos, illustrations etc. come to
mind, but usually not tables."
>> True, but do we know why Adobe specifically gives the alternate text
feature in a PDF <table>?
On Jul 7, 2014 5:14 PM, "Olaf Drümmer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Davarshi,
>
> if that's an option - fix the problem on the editorial level to ensure
> that not just JAWS users benefit from it. One option to fix it would be to
> make the description of the table part of the regular page content.
>
> An alternate description in PDF is intended to complement "items that do
> not translate naturally into text". Photos, illustrations etc. come to
> mind, but usually not tables.
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
> On 7 Jul 2014, at 23:06, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text'
> property
> > in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data
> tables
> > with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be
> able
> > to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with a
> > table as they do in web based tables.
> > -Devarshi
>
> > > >

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 8:08PM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Loretta,

"If you provide an Alternate
Text property for a <Table>, the table will be completely invisible to the
screen reader."

>> Yes, I noticed that too but who is intended user group for this feature?
On Jul 7, 2014 9:42 PM, "Loretta Guarino Reid" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Alternate Text is meant to be the text replacement for an image that just
> contains text. It is different from Alt in that it is considered part of
> the surrounding text, possibly part of a word. If you provide an Alternate
> Text property for a <Table>, the table will be completely invisible to the
> screen reader.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text'
> property
> > in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data
> tables
> > with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be
> able
> > to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with a
> > table as they do in web based tables.
> > -Devarshi
> > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Loretta Guarino Reid
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 8:18PM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | Next message →

The Alternate Text property is a global attribute, available on any tag in
the tags tree. There are many tags for which it would make little sense.


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Loretta,
>
> "If you provide an Alternate
> Text property for a <Table>, the table will be completely invisible to the
> screen reader."
>
> >> Yes, I noticed that too but who is intended user group for this feature?
> On Jul 7, 2014 9:42 PM, "Loretta Guarino Reid" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Alternate Text is meant to be the text replacement for an image that just
> > contains text. It is different from Alt in that it is considered part of
> > the surrounding text, possibly part of a word. If you provide an
> Alternate
> > Text property for a <Table>, the table will be completely invisible to
> the
> > screen reader.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text'
> > property
> > > in the tag tree of a <Table>? I have a document with as many 20 data
> > tables
> > > with captions (or headings, for some), and would want JAWS users to be
> > able
> > > to pull up a utility list and hear a brief description associated with
> a
> > > table as they do in web based tables.
> > > -Devarshi
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Tue, Jul 08 2014 12:26AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Hi Loretta,

in the world of PDF at least this ins incorrect. What you describe here is called 'replacement text' (or in the PDF syntax, 'ActualText').

Olaf


On 8 Jul 2014, at 03:41, Loretta Guarino Reid < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Alternate Text is meant to be the text replacement for an image that just
> contains text.

From: Jon Avila
Date: Tue, Jul 08 2014 5:15AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | Next message →

> In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property

The property is simply available for all elements. Practically speaking the actualText property should be used as replacement text Luke Olaf said but it would replace the whole table's contents. I think what you are aiming at is the table @summary which can be set in the table editor. Support for AT is likely to be inconsistent though with summary.

Jon


> On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Tue, Jul 08 2014 8:11AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | Next message →

"I think what you are aiming at is the table @summary which can be set in
the table editor. Support for AT is likely to be inconsistent though with
summary."

>> Yes Jon, I am expecting PDF table summaries to be picked up by JAWS as
they are in web. It seems adobe is providing the hook here (via the summary
attribute?), but jaws does not seem to detect it. Not sure if this will be
accomplished with adobe 11 / jaws 15 or later versions.

I also experimented using an empty caption tag with an alternate text after
the <table> and it was read when listing all the tables (Ins + Ctrl + T) --
though not perfect, it seems to work. Ideally, I would like to navigate to
every table and hear the summary by using the table quick key.

Devarshi
> In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property

The property is simply available for all elements. Practically speaking the
actualText property should be used as replacement text Luke Olaf said but
it would replace the whole table's contents. I think what you are aiming
at is the table @summary which can be set in the table editor. Support for
AT is likely to be inconsistent though with summary.

Jon


> On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property

From: Priti Rohra
Date: Wed, Jul 09 2014 1:34AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Hi Devarshi,

I am not sure about support for table summary in Jaws 15 but NVDA
supports PDF table summaries since its 2012 update!
Also NVDA reads the caption for tables. Press the quick nav key "T"
and NVDA will read the summary/Caption provided for a table.

On an another note, Jaws does read table captions when you press Up
arrow after jumping to a table by pressing T, surely not a ideal
method though.

Always BPositive!
Priti Rohra

On 7/8/14, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> "I think what you are aiming at is the table @summary which can be set in
> the table editor. Support for AT is likely to be inconsistent though with
> summary."
>
>>> Yes Jon, I am expecting PDF table summaries to be picked up by JAWS as
> they are in web. It seems adobe is providing the hook here (via the summary
> attribute?), but jaws does not seem to detect it. Not sure if this will be
> accomplished with adobe 11 / jaws 15 or later versions.
>
> I also experimented using an empty caption tag with an alternate text after
> the <table> and it was read when listing all the tables (Ins + Ctrl + T) --
> though not perfect, it seems to work. Ideally, I would like to navigate to
> every table and hear the summary by using the table quick key.
>
> Devarshi
>> In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property
>
> The property is simply available for all elements. Practically speaking the
> actualText property should be used as replacement text Luke Olaf said but
> it would replace the whole table's contents. I think what you are aiming
> at is the table @summary which can be set in the table editor. Support for
> AT is likely to be inconsistent though with summary.
>
> Jon
>
>
>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text'
>> property
> > > > > > >

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Wed, Jul 09 2014 8:28AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Priti,

Thanks for the update on NVDA. Yes, it seems odd to arrow up in order to
read the caption when using jaws -- not sure how many users would be aware
of this.

Devarshi
On Jul 9, 2014 3:35 AM, "Priti Rohra" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Devarshi,
>
> I am not sure about support for table summary in Jaws 15 but NVDA
> supports PDF table summaries since its 2012 update!
> Also NVDA reads the caption for tables. Press the quick nav key "T"
> and NVDA will read the summary/Caption provided for a table.
>
> On an another note, Jaws does read table captions when you press Up
> arrow after jumping to a table by pressing T, surely not a ideal
> method though.
>
> Always BPositive!
> Priti Rohra
>
> On 7/8/14, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > "I think what you are aiming at is the table @summary which can be set in
> > the table editor. Support for AT is likely to be inconsistent though
> with
> > summary."
> >
> >>> Yes Jon, I am expecting PDF table summaries to be picked up by JAWS as
> > they are in web. It seems adobe is providing the hook here (via the
> summary
> > attribute?), but jaws does not seem to detect it. Not sure if this will
> be
> > accomplished with adobe 11 / jaws 15 or later versions.
> >
> > I also experimented using an empty caption tag with an alternate text
> after
> > the <table> and it was read when listing all the tables (Ins + Ctrl + T)
> --
> > though not perfect, it seems to work. Ideally, I would like to navigate
> to
> > every table and hear the summary by using the table quick key.
> >
> > Devarshi
> >> In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text' property
> >
> > The property is simply available for all elements. Practically speaking
> the
> > actualText property should be used as replacement text Luke Olaf said but
> > it would replace the whole table's contents. I think what you are aiming
> > at is the table @summary which can be set in the table editor. Support
> for
> > AT is likely to be inconsistent though with summary.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 7, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Devarshi Pant < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all - In PDF, what is the significance of the 'Alternate Text'
> >> property
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >

From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Wed, Jul 09 2014 8:45AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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Now I am confused. When in html are we supposed to use caption or summary? I am thinking we are supposed to use caption. Is this correct?

Susie

From: Devarshi Pant
Date: Wed, Jul 09 2014 9:44AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
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It's captions in html 5, but summary can be helpful too in certain
situations.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H39.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html
Now I am confused. When in html are we supposed to use caption or summary?
I am thinking we are supposed to use caption. Is this correct?

Susie

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Jul 09 2014 10:04AM
Subject: Re: 'Alternate Text' property in data tables
← Previous message | No next message

> Now I am confused. When in html are we supposed to use caption or
summary?

A caption element should be used whenever there is a visual caption for
the table. When a visual caption is not available one can be recommended
to assist users with disabilities but generally it would not be required
to add one.

A summary attribute should only be used when the table structure might be
confusing to users of screen readers and a summary might provide details
about how the table was structured so the user could best navigate the
table with assistive technology. Summaries are not visible and are
supplementary information.

Jonathan
SSB BART Group