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Thread: JAWS and Describedby
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 1:45PM
Subject: JAWS and Describedby
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Folks,
I know JAWS 17 has issues. I mean personal issues with aria-describedby. Yet, what I am observing does not make any darn sense to me. Can someone shed any light on this?
JAWS 17 fires up the aria-describedby when the password text box gets focus. That's how it should be. However, if I type the first character, JAWS fires the aria-describedby again. If I continue to type, JAWS does not fire the aria-describedby.
If I switch to Firefox with JAWS 17, the behavior is different and as it should be. JAWS fires up aria-describedby only when the text box gets the focus.
I cannot figure out for the life of me why JAWS 17 and IE 11 re-fire the aria-describedby when the first character is typed in the text box.
Here is my code, you can put it in a note pad and test it.
I need a solution to this or a work around if any of you know of one.
<div>
<label for="Password1">
Password
</label>
<input type="password" aria-describedby="sc-validatr-15 password-hints" required="" id="Password1" />
<span role="alert" id="sc-validatr-15">
Please enter a strong password.
</span>
<div id="password-hints">
<h3>
Why create a strong password?
</h3>
<p>
Account security is becoming more and more important all the time. And in order to keep your account safe, we need your help. We know that creating a strong and unique password might not be easy, but it can be fun. Try using an inside joke, a rhyme, or a reference to something only you would know.
</p>
</div>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 1:52PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Hi
Would role="alert" on the validator span be causing this? I suspect
so, but don't have time to test right now.
In any case, I wouldn't use role="alert" on this, use it sparingly and
only for critical live region situations, not in a tooltip scenario.
On 9/14/16, Jamous, JP < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I know JAWS 17 has issues. I mean personal issues with aria-describedby.
> Yet, what I am observing does not make any darn sense to me. Can someone
> shed any light on this?
>
> JAWS 17 fires up the aria-describedby when the password text box gets focus.
> That's how it should be. However, if I type the first character, JAWS fires
> the aria-describedby again. If I continue to type, JAWS does not fire the
> aria-describedby.
>
> If I switch to Firefox with JAWS 17, the behavior is different and as it
> should be. JAWS fires up aria-describedby only when the text box gets the
> focus.
>
> I cannot figure out for the life of me why JAWS 17 and IE 11 re-fire the
> aria-describedby when the first character is typed in the text box.
>
> Here is my code, you can put it in a note pad and test it.
>
> I need a solution to this or a work around if any of you know of one.
>
> <div>
> <label for="Password1">
> Password
> </label>
> <input type="password" aria-describedby="sc-validatr-15 password-hints"
> required="" id="Password1" />
> <span role="alert" id="sc-validatr-15">
> Please enter a strong password.
> </span>
> <div id="password-hints">
> <h3>
> Why create a strong password?
> </h3>
> <p>
> Account security is becoming more and more important all the time. And in
> order to keep your account safe, we need your help. We know that creating a
> strong and unique password might not be easy, but it can be fun. Try using
> an inside joke, a rhyme, or a reference to something only you would know.
> </p>
> </div>
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 2:09PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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I removed the role="alert". The issue remains.
What is happening is that JAWS gets the focus on the text box and goes into forms mode on. The moment I type the first letter, JAWS acts as if it refocused on the text box object.
I even removed one of the IDs and used one with aria-describedby. The issue continued.
I figured maybe because the input type is "password". I changed it to "text" and nothing different.
NVDA and VoiceOver do not do that at all. Even JAWS 17 does not do it with Firefox. Only good old IE 11.
**************************************************
Jean-Pierre Jamous
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Developer
UI Accessibility Team
SME for EBN Include
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Blind and Visually Impaired Expert
The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves
**************************************************
From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 2:25PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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This is likely a JAWS bug when trying to handle IE11, which has lots of historical issues with handling events like this.
To summarize the events that happen, when an element receives focus, its Name and Description is detected and announced. Name is the accessible name, and Description in this case is referenced using aria-describedby.
Also, if you dynamically change the element that is referenced using aria-describedby or change the ID that it points to while focus remains on that form field or element, the browser fires a description_changed event which is supposed to be detected by the AT and cause this information to be announced. This is also important for cases when there is a delay between when the element receives focus and when the tooltip is rendered, which may not actually be in the DOM until a second or two after, making it necessary to set aria-describedby after this element receives focus.
Unfortunately these events have never fired correctly in IE11 and likely never will now, so JAWS has to have hard coded detection mechanisms in place to try and do this manually as a result.
So typing in a form field by itself should not cause aria-describedby to be announced repeatedly by JAWS, as long as the Description remains static.
If you want a situation like the following instead for typing into a form field, so that dynamic help messages are announced automatically as you type:
http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/Inline%20Form%20Field%20Validation%20and%20Dynamic%20Help%20Tooltips/Dynamic%20Help%20Tooltip/demo.htm
Then at present a live region using aria-live=polite is your best bet.
If what you want is just one Description however, then I recommend filing a JAWS bug with steps to reproduce the behavior in IE11, since this is likely just a repetetive announcement bug.
Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com
From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 2:29PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Hi JP,
I noticed a few weeks ago when testing issues with aria-labelledby and aria-describedby that if you examined the MSAA interface using a-viewer in IE that accDescription was never populated by IE11 but that is was when using FireFox. Not sure if this is part of the problem or not but since JAWS cannot get the description directly through MSAA in IE11 that may be the source of the problem and explain the difference between FF and IE. I think that NVDA and the other screen readers have just given up on MSAA for web information and are directly accessing the attributes through the HTML regardless of the browser but that is purely speculation.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 2:58PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Bryan and Mike,
Thank you for this invaluable info. Personally, I am beginning to like JAWS with Firefox more than IE. IE crashes so much and on certain text boxes, that demonic voice of grandpa fires up. It has happened on multiple sites with me.
**************************************************
Jean-Pierre Jamous
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Developer
UI Accessibility Team
SME for EBN Include
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Blind and Visually Impaired Expert
The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves
**************************************************
From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:05PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Guess I have been lucky - Grandpa has been staying silent for me. <grin/> Unfortunately the IE stability issues exist regardless of what AT I am running or not. I just figure that it is Microsoft's way of telling me it is time to take a break.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:09PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Mike,
How were you able to identify if the SR was reading the MSAA? Is there a way to obtain this info from IE itself?
**************************************************
Jean-Pierre Jamous
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Developer
UI Accessibility Team
SME for EBN Include
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Blind and Visually Impaired Expert
The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves
**************************************************
From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:19PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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JP what the screen reader was actually accessing was pure conjecture on my part based upon the behavior. I used the a-viewer tool to see what was being presented through MSAA.
Since NVDA did not have issues with aria-describedby or aria-labelledby in IE and that information was not available through MSAA per the a-viewer tool I made the assumption that NVDA must be looking directly at the html elements to find the information.
JAWS only announced the correct content from aria-labelledby and aria-describedby when that content was correct when looking at MSAA through a-viewer. This only occurred when looking at the output of a-viewer when focused on the FF window. Thus I concluded that JAWS was not getting this information from the HTML and trying to find it through MSAA.
My logic may be flawed but it's the best explanation that I could come up with.
Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)
From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:20PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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I've certainly gotten frustrated with IE11. I use Fire Fox but I'm wondering what the overall consensus is for sing JAWS with Chrome? There seems to be differing opinions on JAWS and Chrome, I'd love others to comment on that Browser especially from a screen reader perspective.
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:27PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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JAWS and Chrome aren't as compatible as JAWS and Firefox. Yet, FS has made it official that they will be providing more Chrome accessibility with JAWS, because educational institutions are using Chrome for the most part. That was the prime reason why FS had to adopt Chrome.
I would say use it as I do especially when running the WAVE toolbar. It works just fine. If you find that some pages aren't as accessible as they should be, fall back to Firefox to ensure that it is not JAWS related issue.
I hope that helps.
**************************************************
Jean-Pierre Jamous
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Developer
UI Accessibility Team
SME for EBN Include
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Blind and Visually Impaired Expert
The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves
**************************************************
From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:29PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Makes lots of sense. Thank you Mike.
**************************************************
Jean-Pierre Jamous
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Developer
UI Accessibility Team
SME for EBN Include
Digital Accessibility Specialist & Blind and Visually Impaired Expert
The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves
**************************************************
From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Sep 14 2016 3:32PM
Subject: Re: JAWS and Describedby
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Yes, that's a given. Also, certainly seems that JAWS18 works better than older versions. I just think it's very helpful to see how others view it.