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Thread: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Sun, Jun 03 2018 3:11PM
Subject: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
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About a year ago, I asked about the use of different markups with numbered paragraphs. My memory of that query is that there were no true suggestions on improving readability.
We are re-investigating the best layout and one of our clients suggested the use of ARIA-Headings for the paragraph numbers. I feel that the additional verbosity is not bringing any additional feedback, but would like to hear what others feel.
Please take a look at my CodePan at:
https://codepen.io/jccTests/full/GGorRJ
And provide feedback.
Thanks,
Jonathan
From: glen walker
Date: Sun, Jun 03 2018 6:00PM
Subject: Re: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
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Is there a reason a standard <ol> couldn't be used? I'm assuming so
because that seemed like the obvious first choice but you're looking for a
different solution.
I tend to shy away from definition lists because VoiceOver, NVDA, and JAWS
all treat them differently from each other. VO doesn't think they're
lists. You can't navigate to them using the "Lists" settings on the
rotor. NVDA treats each <dt> and <dd> as separate list items, so if you
had 3 pairs of definitions, NVDA would tell you it's a list with 6 items.
In JAWS, if you navigate using the 'I' (eye) quicknav key, it only
navigates to the terms and not the definitions.
Your heading solution isn't bad but I wouldn't start the heading label with
the word "paragraph". If I'm looking for the 15th paragraph, I have to
hear "paragraph" every time before I hear the number that I'm interested
in. Although not as grammatically pleasing, I would swap the two and have
"1 paragraph", "2 paragraph", etc. That way I can quickly hear the number
first and find 15 easier.
Glen
On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> About a year ago, I asked about the use of different markups with numbered
> paragraphs. My memory of that query is that there were no true suggestions
> on improving readability.
>
> We are re-investigating the best layout and one of our clients suggested
> the use of ARIA-Headings for the paragraph numbers. I feel that the
> additional verbosity is not bringing any additional feedback, but would
> like to hear what others feel.
>
> Please take a look at my CodePan at:
> https://codepen.io/jccTests/full/GGorRJ
>
> And provide feedback.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jonathan
>
> > > > >
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Sun, Jun 03 2018 6:19PM
Subject: Re: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
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Dear Glen,
I was considering swapping the number and the word paragraph also since then JAWS heading list could be used with first letter navigation to jump to a paragraph. My CSS designer had concerns over control with an <ol> though I did not get into the details with him.
For VoiceOver, the Terms were read and the list said hit was a list at the beginning. In NVDA 2018.2 NVDA listed the DL's as having 10 items but then listed eat one as ??? of 20 so NVDA might have made progress. JAWS 2018 did behave the way you described.
Thanks for the feedback,
Jonathan
> On Jun 3, 2018, at 8:00 PM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Is there a reason a standard <ol> couldn't be used? I'm assuming so
> because that seemed like the obvious first choice but you're looking for a
> different solution.
>
> I tend to shy away from definition lists because VoiceOver, NVDA, and JAWS
> all treat them differently from each other. VO doesn't think they're
> lists. You can't navigate to them using the "Lists" settings on the
> rotor. NVDA treats each <dt> and <dd> as separate list items, so if you
> had 3 pairs of definitions, NVDA would tell you it's a list with 6 items.
> In JAWS, if you navigate using the 'I' (eye) quicknav key, it only
> navigates to the terms and not the definitions.
>
> Your heading solution isn't bad but I wouldn't start the heading label with
> the word "paragraph". If I'm looking for the 15th paragraph, I have to
> hear "paragraph" every time before I hear the number that I'm interested
> in. Although not as grammatically pleasing, I would swap the two and have
> "1 paragraph", "2 paragraph", etc. That way I can quickly hear the number
> first and find 15 easier.
>
> Glen
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> About a year ago, I asked about the use of different markups with numbered
>> paragraphs. My memory of that query is that there were no true suggestions
>> on improving readability.
>>
>> We are re-investigating the best layout and one of our clients suggested
>> the use of ARIA-Headings for the paragraph numbers. I feel that the
>> additional verbosity is not bringing any additional feedback, but would
>> like to hear what others feel.
>>
>> Please take a look at my CodePan at:
>> https://codepen.io/jccTests/full/GGorRJ
>>
>> And provide feedback.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > >
From: IL Holdsworth
Date: Mon, Jun 04 2018 1:36AM
Subject: Re: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
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It might be worth pushing your designer on the OL front as that would be by far the best solution.
How important is it that screenreader users hear the word "paragraph" each time? If it's important, could you precede the numbered section with some descriptive wording, possibly hidden off screen, and then you could omit the word "paragraph" from each instance, avoiding confusion when users hear "15 paragraph".
Just out of interest, would changing the wording to "15 paragraph" not fail 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence?
Cheers.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Cohn
Sent: 04 June 2018 01:19
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
Dear Glen,
I was considering swapping the number and the word paragraph also since then JAWS heading list could be used with first letter navigation to jump to a paragraph. My CSS designer had concerns over control with an <ol> though I did not get into the details with him.
For VoiceOver, the Terms were read and the list said hit was a list at the beginning. In NVDA 2018.2 NVDA listed the DL's as having 10 items but then listed eat one as ??? of 20 so NVDA might have made progress. JAWS 2018 did behave the way you described.
Thanks for the feedback,
Jonathan
> On Jun 3, 2018, at 8:00 PM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Is there a reason a standard <ol> couldn't be used? I'm assuming so
> because that seemed like the obvious first choice but you're looking
> for a different solution.
>
> I tend to shy away from definition lists because VoiceOver, NVDA, and
> JAWS all treat them differently from each other. VO doesn't think
> they're lists. You can't navigate to them using the "Lists" settings
> on the rotor. NVDA treats each <dt> and <dd> as separate list items,
> so if you had 3 pairs of definitions, NVDA would tell you it's a list with 6 items.
> In JAWS, if you navigate using the 'I' (eye) quicknav key, it only
> navigates to the terms and not the definitions.
>
> Your heading solution isn't bad but I wouldn't start the heading label
> with the word "paragraph". If I'm looking for the 15th paragraph, I
> have to hear "paragraph" every time before I hear the number that I'm
> interested in. Although not as grammatically pleasing, I would swap
> the two and have
> "1 paragraph", "2 paragraph", etc. That way I can quickly hear the
> number first and find 15 easier.
>
> Glen
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> About a year ago, I asked about the use of different markups with
>> numbered paragraphs. My memory of that query is that there were no
>> true suggestions on improving readability.
>>
>> We are re-investigating the best layout and one of our clients
>> suggested the use of ARIA-Headings for the paragraph numbers. I feel
>> that the additional verbosity is not bringing any additional
>> feedback, but would like to hear what others feel.
>>
>> Please take a look at my CodePan at:
>> https://codepen.io/jccTests/full/GGorRJ
>>
>> And provide feedback.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Jun 04 2018 7:14AM
Subject: Re: Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
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Hi Jonathan, the "heading level 4" trips me up -- I would not want to hear another number before the paragraph number. The DL is my preference out of the two.
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Cohn
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2018 5:11 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Feedback on numbered paragraphs.
About a year ago, I asked about the use of different markups with numbered paragraphs. My memory of that query is that there were no true suggestions on improving readability.
We are re-investigating the best layout and one of our clients suggested the use of ARIA-Headings for the paragraph numbers. I feel that the additional verbosity is not bringing any additional feedback, but would like to hear what others feel.
Please take a look at my CodePan at:
https://codepen.io/jccTests/full/GGorRJ
And provide feedback.
Thanks,
Jonathan