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Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2001 9:54AM
Subject: Text Only Version
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I am creating a text-only version of a web site and I am wondering if I
should use colors within the headers or should I just keep everything simply
black and white?
Here is a sample that I am working on...
http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/index_txt.html
This is basically my first attempt in creating a text only version and
wanted to at least differentiate headings etc..
Thank you for any input and suggestions.
Michael

From: Cohen, Lisa A.
Date: Thu, Sep 06 2001 10:08PM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Hi Michael,
Just one opinion - I think it looks pretty good, and those colors (which are
fairly high contrast) seem fine.
One thing I wondered though: Do you think you might use a wider underbar
under your headers, to help differentiate (I was thinking of a user with low
vision using magnification) between simple underlines and hot links?
Lisa

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Fri, Sep 07 2001 7:17AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Thank you both Beth and Lisa for your suggestions. I have did some changes
to the headers (no underlines) and added some color and depth to the
horizontal rules which will hopefully stand out a bit better.
Thank you once again for your suggestions and time.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Lisa A." < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'WebAIM forum'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Text Only Version

> Hi Michael,
>
> Just one opinion - I think it looks pretty good, and those colors (which
are
> fairly high contrast) seem fine.
>
> One thing I wondered though: Do you think you might use a wider underbar
> under your headers, to help differentiate (I was thinking of a user with
low
> vision using magnification) between simple underlines and hot links?
>
> Lisa
>
>

From: Ben Caldwell
Date: Fri, Sep 07 2001 4:40PM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Hi Michael,
Out of curiosity, was there a particular accessibility reason you decided to
go with an alternative text only page? I didn't see anything out of the
ordinary at http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/ that would lead me to believe
text-only would be necessary to ensure accessibility. Unless dynamically
updated when the default version of a page changes, text-only pages are
often neglected over time and are time consuming to create and maintain.
For more information on this topic, see
http://www.w3.org/1999/05/WCAG-REC-fact#text.
On another note, in skimming through the code on the graphics page, I
noticed that you use the words "image" and "link" in many of your alt
attributes. Most screen readers announce both automatically (in some cases
audio cues like a change in voice or pitch are used to indicate that you are
on a link), so use of these words in the alt attributes is not necessary.
Hope this helps,
-Ben
--
Ben Caldwell - Web/Information Specialist
Trace Research & Development Center
email: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | http://www.trace.wisc.edu/
Tel: 608.265.2064 | Fax: 608.262.8848 | TTY: 608.263.5408

From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Fri, Sep 07 2001 7:23PM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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If the page below is to be used I am impressed. It shows that you took a
great deal of time and effort to make it accessible and it is very well
done. In fact I would say "WOW"!
Great Job, don t do a text only page, this one is terrific!
I ran the page at http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/ through the WAVE and
it looks great!
Take care and continue the great work....forget the text only page, you don
t need it in my opinion.

Sincerely,
Mike Burks
Webmaster and Public Information Officer
www.icdri.org

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 6:43AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Ben,
Thank you for that information regarding the "image" and "link", I did not
know that! The main reason for my creating a text only version is just to
be on the safe side. I really am trying to make this entire site accessible
for the fact that Goodwill Industries services are mainly geared for the
disabled.
Thank you for your positive feedback and suggestion. It is greatly
appreciated!
Michael

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 6:45AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Mike,
Thank you for your positive feedback. A quick question...what is WAVE? Is
it some type of accessibility tester a la Bobby?
Once again thank you for the positive feedback.
Michael

From: A. DeLuca
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 6:57AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Michael -
Just a quick note - there is a typo in the fourth paragraph on the
weboage - "out" should be "our."
Alice DeLuca
9/10/2001 8:32:45 AM, Michael Goddard <michael@tdh-
marketing.com> wrote:
>Ben,
>
>Thank you for that information regarding the "image" and "link", I did
not
>know that! The main reason for my creating a text only version is just to
>be on the safe side. I really am trying to make this entire site
accessible
>for the fact that Goodwill Industries services are mainly geared for the
>disabled.
>
>Thank you for your positive feedback and suggestion. It is greatly
>appreciated!
>
>Michael
>
>

From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 7:14AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Michael,
the wave is a tool for helping analyze a site for accessibility.
It is located at: http://www.temple.edu/inst_disabilities/piat/wave/
I was written by the late Dr. Len Kasday and is a terrific tool.
Sincerely,
Mike Burks

From: Sara Heine
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 7:20AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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I know I'm new to this group, but I have a question about
your new page http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/. If you
follow one of the links to a Location such as Akron, then
the information appears in the middle section. My question
is the information about Akron contains a link to their
homepage but following the link opens the page in a new
window. Isn't that against accessibility guidelines?
Thanks,
Sara Heine
K-State Research and Extension
www.oznet.ksu.edu
> ----------------------------------------------------------
------------
>
> Date: 7 Sep 2001 19:23:13 -0600
> From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: RE: Text Only Version
>
> If the page below is to be used I am impressed. It shows
that you took a
> great deal of time and effort to make it accessible and
it is very well
> done. In fact I would say "WOW"!
>
> Great Job, don t do a text only page, this one is
terrific!
>
> I ran the page at http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/
through the WAVE
> and
> it looks great!
>
> Take care and continue the great work....forget the text
only page, you
> don
> t need it in my opinion.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Mike Burks
> Webmaster and Public Information Officer
> www.icdri.org
>
> -

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 7:58AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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I have not found anything in the guidelines in regards to links opening
within a new window. However I might have missed this. Can anyone provide
any feedback regarding this?
Thank you,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sara Heine" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: Text Only Version

> I know I'm new to this group, but I have a question about
> your new page http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/. If you
> follow one of the links to a Location such as Akron, then
> the information appears in the middle section. My question
> is the information about Akron contains a link to their
> homepage but following the link opens the page in a new
> window. Isn't that against accessibility guidelines?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sara Heine
> K-State Research and Extension
> www.oznet.ksu.edu
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> >
> > Date: 7 Sep 2001 19:23:13 -0600
> > From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: RE: Text Only Version
> >
> > If the page below is to be used I am impressed. It shows
> that you took a
> > great deal of time and effort to make it accessible and
> it is very well
> > done. In fact I would say "WOW"!
> >
> > Great Job, don t do a text only page, this one is
> terrific!
> >
> > I ran the page at http://www.ohiogoodwills.org/test/
> through the WAVE
> > and
> > it looks great!
> >
> > Take care and continue the great work....forget the text
> only page, you
> > don
> > t need it in my opinion.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Mike Burks
> > Webmaster and Public Information Officer
> > www.icdri.org
> >
> > -

From: Wendy R. Mullin
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 9:53AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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>I have not found anything in the guidelines in regards to links opening
>within a new window. However I might have missed this. Can anyone provide
>any feedback regarding this?
This is a W3C-WAI Priority 2 guideline.
See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups
"Priority 2: 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned
windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change
the current window without informing the user."
Most experienced Web users realize what happens when they select a link
that takes them to a new window. They can explore the Web in this new
window. Or they can close the window and go back to the original
site. However, for "inexperienced" Web users, or for users with some
functional impairments, this can cause confusion.
By my understanding, some screen-readers alert users when they have been
"switched" to a new window. However, other screen readers do not alert the
user when this has happened. If you, as the user, cannot "see" a new
window pop up on your screen, you may get lost or confused as to where you
are in the site. This might also cause confusion to some individuals with
cognitive disabilities.
If you feel you need to open a new window, then alert the user. Some web
developers are now putting "(Opens new browser window.)" behind the link
that opens a new window. An acquaintance of mine who is blind and uses
Windows-Eyes finds this method useful when he is using Web sites.
See http://webaccess.scetv.org/training.html for an example. This is one
section of a site developed by the SC Web Site Accessibility Workgroup,
which has been working towards providing Web accessibility training for Web
developers/designers in SC state government.
While this is not a Priority 1 WAI guideline nor a Section 508 standard,
this is one more step that a Web developer can do to make a site more
accessible to a portion of the population.

Wendy R. Mullin
Web Developer, University of South Carolina
1244 Blossom Street, Columbia, South Carolina 29208
voice: 803-777-6785 | fax: 803-777-4149
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | http://isg.csd.sc.edu/~wmullin/

From: Jean Watkins
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 10:21AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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Ugh. Well, I guess I sort of knew this too. However, I felt that some users
could get confused when they clicked on an outside link and didn't realize
they left our site. What we have done is include a small sentence that
states that outside links will open a new browser window and that our site
will remain open in the background. Is this practice okay to do since we
tell them? We don't ever send up advertising pop-ups or anything like that.
Isn't that what the guidelines are really trying to avoid?
Jean L. Watkins
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.AbilityForum.com
Community Access Through Technology
Like This Internet Resource? Click to Recommend-It (r)
<http://www.recommend-it.com/l.z.e?s=861947>;
----- Original Message -----
> This is a W3C-WAI Priority 2 guideline.
>
> See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups
>
> "Priority 2: 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned
> windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change
> the current window without informing the user."
>
> Most experienced Web users realize what happens when they select a link
> that takes them to a new window. They can explore the Web in this new
> window. Or they can close the window and go back to the original
> site. However, for "inexperienced" Web users, or for users with some
> functional impairments, this can cause confusion.
>
> By my understanding, some screen-readers alert users when they have been
> "switched" to a new window. However, other screen readers do not alert
the
> user when this has happened. If you, as the user, cannot "see" a new
> window pop up on your screen, you may get lost or confused as to where you
> are in the site. This might also cause confusion to some individuals with
> cognitive disabilities.
>
> If you feel you need to open a new window, then alert the user. Some web
> developers are now putting "(Opens new browser window.)" behind the link
> that opens a new window. An acquaintance of mine who is blind and uses
> Windows-Eyes finds this method useful when he is using Web sites.
>
> See http://webaccess.scetv.org/training.html for an example. This is one
> section of a site developed by the SC Web Site Accessibility Workgroup,
> which has been working towards providing Web accessibility training for
Web
> developers/designers in SC state government.
>
> While this is not a Priority 1 WAI guideline nor a Section 508 standard,
> this is one more step that a Web developer can do to make a site more
> accessible to a portion of the population.
>
>
> Wendy R. Mullin
> Web Developer, University of South Carolina
> 1244 Blossom Street, Columbia, South Carolina 29208
> voice: 803-777-6785 | fax: 803-777-4149
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | http://isg.csd.sc.edu/~wmullin/
>
>

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 11:29AM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
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I do not think it is the WC3's intention of using this guideline as a way to
stop banner or advertisement pop-ups. I believe the intention is to prevent
confusion and help ease the navigation/access to information for all users
on the web.
> We don't ever send up advertising pop-ups or anything like that.
> Isn't that what the guidelines are really trying to avoid?
On a side note..(This is not directed at you Jean but the mentality of many
people!) Not to sound rude, but that comment actually ticked me off! Being
an individual with a disablity (deaf), I am in full support of the WAI and
trying to learn as much as I can to make it happen and to support it.
Granted, pop-ups can be annoying to users but the MAIN goal of accessible
web sites is to create a way for people with disabilites, to access the
information with ease and less confusion. NOT to avoid some annoying
advertisement pop up window.
This is mainly directed at a general population of users who do not take the
time to "think" before they "assume". It is really irriating when a person
finds out that I am deaf, they "assume" that I don't know how to speak
english, they assume that I cannot understand a complete sentence, they
assume that I am not intelligent (actually had several people ask me if I
was stupid or what..!) and finally, I am just not worth the time.
I believe this is going to be the biggest barrier that we (web designers and
developers) will have to cross in order to create a truly "accessible" web!
Sorry for the rant and rave and I sincerely apologize for and
misunderstanding if any regarding that above comment.
Michael Goddard
Internet Developer/Programmer

From: Jean Watkins
Date: Mon, Sep 10 2001 2:54PM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version
← Previous message | No next message

The "rant and rave" is fine by me and I'm glad to get all points of view. I
obviously did not clearly state what I intended in my previous e-mail, what
I was trying to say was that all those advertising pop-ups are not only
annoying, but also confusing to me. I've gone to sites that pop-up at least
4 windows above and below my target window and I don't know where the heck I
was supposed to be. I meant it partly in jest because of my own pet peeves,
and as you said of course the regulations weren't actually designed to
prevent an annoyance but to help accessibility. However, I do think those
advertising methods are very distracting and it wouldn't surprise me if they
did have even a small hand in the guideline.
This is a good conversation string and I'd still be interested to know if
stating on the page that outside links open a new browser window is helpful
enough to keep that feature and orient users. It allows the person to know
they've changed sites, lets them return to the site without having to "back
up" to it, and it keeps your audience.
Apologies for any offenses I may have caused.
Jean L. Watkins
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.AbilityForum.com
Community Access Through Technology
Like This Internet Resource? Click to Recommend-It (r)
<http://www.recommend-it.com/l.z.e?s=861947>;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Goddard" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM forum" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Text Only Version

> I do not think it is the WC3's intention of using this guideline as a way
to
> stop banner or advertisement pop-ups. I believe the intention is to
prevent
> confusion and help ease the navigation/access to information for all users
> on the web.
>
> > We don't ever send up advertising pop-ups or anything like that.
> > Isn't that what the guidelines are really trying to avoid?
>
> On a side note..(This is not directed at you Jean but the mentality of
many
> people!) Not to sound rude, but that comment actually ticked me off!
Being
> an individual with a disablity (deaf), I am in full support of the WAI and
> trying to learn as much as I can to make it happen and to support it.
> Granted, pop-ups can be annoying to users but the MAIN goal of accessible
> web sites is to create a way for people with disabilites, to access the
> information with ease and less confusion. NOT to avoid some annoying
> advertisement pop up window.
> Sorry for the rant and rave and I sincerely apologize for and
> misunderstanding if any regarding that above comment.
>
> Michael Goddard
> Internet Developer/Programmer