E-mail List Archives

Search E-mail List Archives for

Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Jamie
Date: Sat, Apr 08 2006 10:00AM
Subject: need help = accessilbity and flash
No previous message | Next message →

I'm a web administrator for Fl blind services. We now
have an contract group that just made a new web site
that i was told to link to. I feel that site is not
accessible it uses flash. Within the flash it would
be accessible if it did stuff like alt text. But I
feel that using flash as the only medium to access a
site is not a good practice. I told my boss this but
she said I was wrong. We at the division should not
care about the accessiblity of a site that we contract
for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
accessible if I am correct about the flash only site.

http://www.floridablindservices.org/


He who allows oppression, shares the crime --Erasmus Darwin


___
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: Rick
Date: Sat, Apr 08 2006 11:20AM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

On 8 Apr 2006 at 8:52, Jamie wrote:
> We at the division should not
> care about the accessiblity of a site that we contract
> for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
> wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
> accessible if I am correct about the flash only site.
>
> http://www.floridablindservices.org/

It's not just inaccessible to blind people -- many
others with various degrees of visual impairment would
struggle to read it, but they probably won't bother.

The text (definitely too small for some) can be resized
in Opera, but not in Firefox or MSIE. The narrow scroll
bar and tiny scroll arrows are impossible for anyone who
has poor wrist/hand/finger control or relies on
assistive tech.

The screen I am looking at now tells me that "Firefox
prevented this site from opening 7 popup windows", but I
have no idea how, where or why?

There is nothing to tell me which tab I have opened, as
the tab itself merely jumps up and down, with no
subsequent clue.

I don't know if Flash is necessarily inaccessible. Maybe
it depends also on the skills of the designer. To me, it
looks like the work of somebody who is learning on the
job and needs some help.


--
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Sat, Apr 08 2006 8:40PM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

Jamie,
Is your boss blind?

Just have a a person with screen readers try to use the site.
Make sure your boss is in the room with them when they try to
use the site. I think the experience will be the best teacher.

Jon




---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Jamie < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Subject: [WebAIM] need help = accessilbity and flash
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>I'm a web administrator for Fl blind services. We now
>have an contract group that just made a new web site
>that i was told to link to. I feel that site is not
>accessible it uses flash. Within the flash it would
>be accessible if it did stuff like alt text. But I
>feel that using flash as the only medium to access a
>site is not a good practice. I told my boss this but
>she said I was wrong. We at the division should not
>care about the accessiblity of a site that we contract
>for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
>wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
>accessible if I am correct about the flash only site.
>
>http://www.floridablindservices.org/
>
>
>He who allows oppression, shares the crime --Erasmus Darwin
>
>
>___
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/

From: Martin Pistorius
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 4:30AM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

One other thing, none of the links in the content are accessible unless you
can use a mouse.

Cheers,

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need help = accessilbity and flash


> On 8 Apr 2006 at 8:52, Jamie wrote:
>> We at the division should not
>> care about the accessiblity of a site that we contract
>> for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
>> wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
>> accessible if I am correct about the flash only site.
>>
>> http://www.floridablindservices.org/
>
> It's not just inaccessible to blind people -- many
> others with various degrees of visual impairment would
> struggle to read it, but they probably won't bother.
>
> The text (definitely too small for some) can be resized
> in Opera, but not in Firefox or MSIE. The narrow scroll
> bar and tiny scroll arrows are impossible for anyone who
> has poor wrist/hand/finger control or relies on
> assistive tech.
>
> The screen I am looking at now tells me that "Firefox
> prevented this site from opening 7 popup windows", but I
> have no idea how, where or why?
>
> There is nothing to tell me which tab I have opened, as
> the tab itself merely jumps up and down, with no
> subsequent clue.
>
> I don't know if Flash is necessarily inaccessible. Maybe
> it depends also on the skills of the designer. To me, it
> looks like the work of somebody who is learning on the
> job and needs some help.
>
>
> --
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Jamie
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 11:50AM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you! I wasn't thinking outside the box of
people who are blind. I'm still using flash, but will
only be using it for computer based instruction for
our employees - I know the software all employees have
installed. But I've been fighting with the "back
button" problem that seems to be inherit in the
software. So he..he.. thanks to you I just added the
following to my draft email which must be politically
correct.:

The usability of the site actually even effects
typical users. For example, check out the usablity of
the "back" button.

The back button in a Web browser is the single-most
used navigation element by ALL users. The back button
does not work on your site. Instead of taking the user
to the previous state of the Macromedia Flash content,
the back button takes the user to the previous HTML
page.

--- Rick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On 8 Apr 2006 at 8:52, Jamie wrote:
> > We at the division should not
> > care about the accessiblity of a site that we
> contract
> > for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
> > wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
> > accessible if I am correct about the flash only
> site.
> >
> > http://www.floridablindservices.org/
>
> It's not just inaccessible to blind people -- many
> others with various degrees of visual impairment
> would
> struggle to read it, but they probably won't bother.
>
> The text (definitely too small for some) can be
> resized
> in Opera, but not in Firefox or MSIE. The narrow
> scroll
> bar and tiny scroll arrows are impossible for anyone
> who
> has poor wrist/hand/finger control or relies on
> assistive tech.
>
> The screen I am looking at now tells me that
> "Firefox
> prevented this site from opening 7 popup windows",
> but I
> have no idea how, where or why?
>
> There is nothing to tell me which tab I have opened,
> as
> the tab itself merely jumps up and down, with no
> subsequent clue.
>
> I don't know if Flash is necessarily inaccessible.
> Maybe
> it depends also on the skills of the designer. To
> me, it
> looks like the work of somebody who is learning on
> the
> job and needs some help.
>
>
> --
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>
> To manage your subscription, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/
> Address list messages to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>



He who allows oppression, shares the crime --Erasmus Darwin


___
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: Jamie
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 12:00PM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

My boss is sighted (Deputy director), but her boss our
director is blind. But did a mention that POLITICS
were at play in our state. I can't say anything
polictically correct, so I best not say anything about
my situation unless it is private.
--- Jon Gunderson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Jamie,
> Is your boss blind?
>
> Just have a a person with screen readers try to use
> the site.
> Make sure your boss is in the room with them when
> they try to
> use the site. I think the experience will be the
> best teacher.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Jamie < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >Subject: [WebAIM] need help = accessilbity and
> flash
> >To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> >I'm a web administrator for Fl blind services. We
> now
> >have an contract group that just made a new web
> site
> >that i was told to link to. I feel that site is
> not
> >accessible it uses flash. Within the flash it
> would
> >be accessible if it did stuff like alt text. But I
> >feel that using flash as the only medium to access
> a
> >site is not a good practice. I told my boss this
> but
> >she said I was wrong. We at the division should
> not
> >care about the accessiblity of a site that we
> contract
> >for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
> >wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make it
> >accessible if I am correct about the flash only
> site.
> >
> >http://www.floridablindservices.org/
> >
> >
> >He who allows oppression, shares the crime
> --Erasmus Darwin
> >
> >
> >___
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >To manage your subscription, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/
> >Address list messages to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> Director of IT Accessibility Services
> Campus Information Technologies and Educational
> Services (CITES)
> and
> Coordinator of Assistive Communication and
> Information Technology
> Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)
>
> Voice: (217) 244-5870
> Fax: (217) 333-0248
> Cell: (217) 714-6313
>
> E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>
>
>
> To manage your subscription, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/
> Address list messages to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>



He who allows oppression, shares the crime --Erasmus Darwin


___
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: Jamie
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 12:10PM
Subject: Re: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

This is a great point to add to my email. I hadn't
realized it! I found two priority one code
violations. But I'm still knew to using flash. Often
I only see with computer based instructions, with a
banner that has some alt text, and on those terrible
intros which normally but not always let you select to
skip it! I use dial-up and I really hate those flash
intros with no way to skip. I usually just go
somewhere else.

--- Martin Pistorius < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> One other thing, none of the links in the content
> are accessible unless you
> can use a mouse.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Martin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need help = accessilbity and
> flash
>
>
> > On 8 Apr 2006 at 8:52, Jamie wrote:
> >> We at the division should not
> >> care about the accessiblity of a site that we
> contract
> >> for. So please look at the site. Tell me if I am
> >> wrong about accessiblity. Suggest ways to make
> it
> >> accessible if I am correct about the flash only
> site.
> >>
> >> http://www.floridablindservices.org/
> >
> > It's not just inaccessible to blind people -- many
> > others with various degrees of visual impairment
> would
> > struggle to read it, but they probably won't
> bother.
> >
> > The text (definitely too small for some) can be
> resized
> > in Opera, but not in Firefox or MSIE. The narrow
> scroll
> > bar and tiny scroll arrows are impossible for
> anyone who
> > has poor wrist/hand/finger control or relies on
> > assistive tech.
> >
> > The screen I am looking at now tells me that
> "Firefox
> > prevented this site from opening 7 popup windows",
> but I
> > have no idea how, where or why?
> >
> > There is nothing to tell me which tab I have
> opened, as
> > the tab itself merely jumps up and down, with no
> > subsequent clue.
> >
> > I don't know if Flash is necessarily inaccessible.
> Maybe
> > it depends also on the skills of the designer. To
> me, it
> > looks like the work of somebody who is learning on
> the
> > job and needs some help.
> >
> >
> > --
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To manage your subscription, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/
> > Address list messages to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> To manage your subscription, visit
> http://list.webaim.org/
> Address list messages to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>



He who allows oppression, shares the crime --Erasmus Darwin


___
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

From: Will Miller
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 2:50PM
Subject: RE: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jamie, I briefly checked the website out with Internet Explorer 6 and
JAWS 7 (I am a blind screenreader user). I mention the specific browser,
assistive technology, and versions that I am using because the user
experience is likely to vary greatly dependant upon these variables.

All of the buttons on the homepage and most of the buttons on secondary
pages have been labelled, but a few are not (they read "button"). The labels
seem to include the text "button", so that when I tab to the About button,
JAWS 7 reads "About Button button" (annoying, but not a barrier to access).
The buttons can be selected by pressing the return key. There is no
indication that the page content has changed when buttons are selected,
which is potentially confusing (a useability rather than accessibility
issue). However, the content does appear in the browser. For example, if I
slect the services button, I can arrow down the page and read about programs
offered by the Division of Blind Services. Two unlabelled buttons appear at
the bottom of the page. If I select the donate button, there also seems to
be a link that is not selectable by keyboard:

"You may use our secure on-line giving page to make credit card donations.
Click here for the online donation page."

Is there a button here that I am not detecting with JAWS?

The pages seem mostly accessible to me, but it is hard to tell without
comparing my experience with that of a sighted person (I might be missing
information without knowing it). I have found that when performaing
accessibility testing with a screenreader, it is important to have an
experienced screenreader user and a sighted person working together so that
you can compare the visual and auditory interfaces. Do you know if the Blind
Services webpages go through user testing? Seems important, considering the
agency's function is to provide services to the blind.

My personal feeling is that, although some Flash pages may be made
technically accessible, they are not appropriate for all websites. The Blind
Services site seems like a clear example of this. Many clients who access
the pages are likely to be inexperienced screenreader users. The unfamiliar
Flash interface is likely to confuse assistive technology novices -- the
very individuals that Blind Services seeks to serve.

On April 4, Jamie wrote:
block quote begin
I'm a web administrator for Fl blind services. We now have an contract
group that just made a new web site that i was told to link to. I feel that
site is not accessible it uses flash. Within the flash it would be
accessible if it did stuff like alt text. But I feel that using flash as
the only medium to access a site is not a good practice. I told my boss
this but she said I was wrong. We at the division should not care about the
accessiblity of a site that we contract for.
block quote end

If your boss feels this way and she works at a blind rehabilitation agency,
she should lose the only thing she seems to care about: her paycheck.

On April 9, Jamie wrote:
block quote begin
My boss is sighted (Deputy director), but her boss our director is blind.
But did a mention that POLITICS were at play in our state. I can't say
anything polictically correct, so I best not say anything about my situation
unless it is private.
block quote end

It's a bit late for that, is it not?

~William Miller

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 8:20PM
Subject: RE: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

I've taken a look also, and the buttons are generally well labeled, but
there are issues with the reading order of the content and the extra
buttons found in the scroll bar for the content of the different
sections are the unlabeled ones that Will is hearing. Also, the way the
the links are provided in the links section doesn't result in them being
accessible.

All of these issues are relatively easily addressed. This site could
(and should) be fixed without too much extra effort.

AWK



>

From: Jamie
Date: Sun, Apr 09 2006 9:30PM
Subject: RE: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for you comments. I am collecting all the
comments for the web person of the site... if that
person decides to make it accessible.

I'm just learning flash, but not to develop a whole
website. I'm hoping to make a few Computer Based
Training Modules and I'd love to make a fun kids page
for sighted young kids to learn about blindness. (so
many plans, so little time.)

Way back when, I was disenfranchized - using a mac
with external disk running a freeware program, and
became interested in the any browers campagin (anyone
remember that), which was my first understanding of
accessiblity as I could only access the pages that
were set up for a text browers.

I fear that even if we could get a flash site totally
accessible, that we would be excluding folks that have
older stuff or were limited to libraries that may or
may not allow plug-ins. What has been your experience
with flash websites?

--- Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've taken a look also, and the buttons are
> generally well labeled, but
> there are issues with the reading order of the
> content and the extra
> buttons found in the scroll bar for the content of
> the different
> sections are the unlabeled ones that Will is
> hearing. Also, the way the
> the links are provided in the links section doesn't
> result in them being
> accessible.
>
> All of these issues are relatively easily addressed.
> This site could
> (and should) be fixed without too much extra effort.
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> >

From: Jamie
Date: Mon, Apr 10 2006 12:00AM
Subject: RE: need help = accessilbity and flash
← Previous message | No next message

Great feedback!
I work for blind services and I agree 100 percent with
you about a sighted person working with a speech
person to check accessiblity. At blind services I
have access to Hi-soft accessiblity tools but usually
use Bobby as I can get two reports. For several years
one of my co-workers who now is in charge of our
information management section and I worked hand in
hand. I worry about code, I use him for usability.
For this site I could not use him because my boss told
me I was NOT suppose to worry about accessiblity. I
may be getting myself in hot water, I didn't want to
get my co-worker in the same pot.

The site in question is a contracting agency of blind
services and I was shocked that our agency didn't
think it was an issue for them to use an url that
makes it appear that they are florida blind services.
I work hard in trying to keep our search engine
results good for our customers. (But that is another
issue.)

The button button issue we have found on sites using
asp dot net. It is annoying.

To me useablity and accessiblity go hand in hand.
What good is an accessible page that no one can use.
<grinning>

I hope you will all forgive me, but I have a morbid
sense of humor. I had never looked at the content
itself. Our agency is contracting with them to make
donations. Their text for donation says" click here
(here is the link) to go to the online donation page.
My co-worker and I provide training to other Florida
state agencies and we cover the "click here" sydrome
in the training. Having seen my co-worker use jaws I
also realize how annoying click here or many read more
links are also very annoying.

You definately gave me more to think about. Thank you
for taking the time to do this.

This is quite a helpful groups. I'm learning from
these posts but also from the achives.


--- Will Miller < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Jamie, I briefly checked the website out with
> Internet Explorer 6 and
> JAWS 7 (I am a blind screenreader user). I mention
> the specific browser,
> assistive technology, and versions that I am using
> because the user
> experience is likely to vary greatly dependant upon
> these variables.
>
> All of the buttons on the homepage and most of the
> buttons on secondary
> pages have been labelled, but a few are not (they
> read "button"). The labels
> seem to include the text "button", so that when I
> tab to the About button,
> JAWS 7 reads "About Button button" (annoying, but
> not a barrier to access).
> The buttons can be selected by pressing the return
> key. There is no
> indication that the page content has changed when
> buttons are selected,
> which is potentially confusing (a useability rather
> than accessibility
> issue). However, the content does appear in the
> browser. For example, if I
> slect the services button, I can arrow down the page
> and read about programs
> offered by the Division of Blind Services. Two
> unlabelled buttons appear at
> the bottom of the page. If I select the donate
> button, there also seems to
> be a link that is not selectable by keyboard:
>
> "You may use our secure on-line giving page to make
> credit card donations.
> Click here for the online donation page."
>
> Is there a button here that I am not detecting with
> JAWS?
>
> The pages seem mostly accessible to me, but it is
> hard to tell without
> comparing my experience with that of a sighted
> person (I might be missing
> information without knowing it). I have found that
> when performaing
> accessibility testing with a screenreader, it is
> important to have an
> experienced screenreader user and a sighted person
> working together so that
> you can compare the visual and auditory interfaces.
> Do you know if the Blind
> Services webpages go through user testing? Seems
> important, considering the
> agency's function is to provide services to the
> blind.
>
> My personal feeling is that, although some Flash
> pages may be made
> technically accessible, they are not appropriate for
> all websites. The Blind
> Services site seems like a clear example of this.
> Many clients who access
> the pages are likely to be inexperienced
> screenreader users. The unfamiliar
> Flash interface is likely to confuse assistive
> technology novices -- the
> very individuals that Blind Services seeks to serve.
>
>
> On April 4, Jamie wrote:
> block quote begin
> I'm a web administrator for Fl blind services. We
> now have an contract
> group that just made a new web site that i was told
> to link to. I feel that
> site is not accessible it uses flash. Within the
> flash it would be
> accessible if it did stuff like alt text. But I
> feel that using flash as
> the only medium to access a site is not a good
> practice. I told my boss
> this but she said I was wrong. We at the division
> should not care about the
> accessiblity of a site that we contract for.
> block quote end
>
> If your boss feels this way and she works at a blind
> rehabilitation agency,
> she should lose the only thing she seems to care
> about: her paycheck.
>
> On April 9, Jamie wrote:
> block quote begin
> My boss is sighted (Deputy director), but her boss
> our director is blind.
> But did a mention that POLITICS were at play in our
> state. I can't say
> anything polictically correct, so I best not say
> anything about my situation
> unless it is private.
> block quote end
>
> It's a bit late for that, is it not?
>
> ~William Miller
>
>