E-mail List Archives
Thread: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 4:39PM
Subject: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
No previous message | Next message →
Hello,
If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
developing a web application to work with Jaws.
I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to an
application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its
buffer? On our application site:
https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use your
screen reader rather than web TTS.
2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ still
announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you press the
right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no problem
clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
issues with Jaws in a browser application?
Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how to
resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. Iâm
using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
Thank you,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:45PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the other - it's always both.
NVDA works fine.
What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Hello,
If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am developing a web application to work with Jaws.
I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its buffer? On our application site:
https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use your screen reader rather than web TTS.
2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability issues with Jaws in a browser application?
Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
Thank you,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
From: Dean.Vasile@outlook.com
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:48PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →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=
From: Dean.Vasile@outlook.com
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:50PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
I also found that issue.
However, as I said in my last email, JAWS seem to be OK, however the web TTS voice had a significant delay.
Dino
617-799-1162
Dino's Canteen 1618
11 Eglin St,
Hanscom AFB
Bedford, MA
> On Feb 14, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
>
> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>
> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its buffer? On our application site:
>
> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>
> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use your screen reader rather than web TTS.
>
> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>
> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>
>
>
> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>
> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>; > > > > > >
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 8:00PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello,
It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the
application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want
any menus open when you hit backslash.
It's an application specific command.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the
> latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS
> read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the
> other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element
> Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
>
> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>
> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to an
> application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its
> buffer? On our application site:
>
> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>
> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use your
> screen reader rather than web TTS.
>
> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>
> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>
>
>
> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>
> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how to
> resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. Iâm
> using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 8:05PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello,
Thank you for those checks, they are unrelated to the application
experience. They are wrong aria being applied in the Mapbox component
that's on the visual only experience at the bottom on the page.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:50 PM = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I also found that issue.
> However, as I said in my last email, JAWS seem to be OK, however the web
> TTS voice had a significant delay.
>
> Dino
>
> 617-799-1162
>
> Dino's Canteen 1618
> 11 Eglin St,
> Hanscom AFB
> Bedford, MA
>
> > On Feb 14, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web
> TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or
> the other - it's always both.
> >
> > NVDA works fine.
> >
> > What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> > Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element
> Using Aria Live Regions
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
> >
> > I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to
> an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its
> buffer? On our application site:
> >
> > https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
> >
> > 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This
> will
> > pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use
> your screen reader rather than web TTS.
> >
> > 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> > between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
> >
> > 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly
> repeatedly
> > arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
> >
> >
> >
> > Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
> >
> > Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how
> to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. Iâm
> using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 11:12PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
Now I understand and I can hear the difference between JAWS and NVDA. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make JAWS work the same as NVDA because they handle queued changes to the live region differently. JAWS queues all the changes and announces them all, which is why it says "long ramp" after you have moved to an empty space. By contrast, NVDA announces the most recent change and dumps all the previous ones. That is a desirable behaviour in your application, but it is not in some others. It would be nice if the author could control this behaviour, but it is not possible.
The ARIA 1.1, 1.2 and draft 1.3 specifications for live regions says "User agents or assistive technologies MAY choose to clear queued changes when an assertive change occurs. (e.g., changes in an assertive region may remove all currently queued changes)", so both JAWS and NVDA meet the specification in the case of an assertive region.
Curiously, the specification does not say what should happen to queued changes in polite regions, which is what you are using. Perhaps the specification authors thought it was obvious that the queued changes should all be announced since they are not time critical. If that is the case, NVDA's behaviour is incorrect. But we don't know because the specification doesn't say and it doesn't look like there are plans for it to do so.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 15 February 2023 03:00
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Hello,
It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want any menus open when you hit backslash.
It's an application specific command.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the
> web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use
> one or the other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application
> Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
>
> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>
> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to
> an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from
> its buffer? On our application site:
>
> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>
> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use
> your screen reader rather than web TTS.
>
> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>
> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>
>
>
> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>
> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how
> to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of
> Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
From: tim.harshbarger@deque.com
Date: Wed, Feb 15 2023 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
You should be able to fix the second problem by using a debounce function for writing messages to the live region.
While the user is pressing keys quickly and repeatedly, the debounce function will prevent any messages from being written to the live region until the user pauses longer between key presses. This won't alter how NVDA currently speaks the information while preventing the JAWS speech queue from loading up with old messages it has to process.
It is something I have used for character counters.
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:13 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Now I understand and I can hear the difference between JAWS and NVDA. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make JAWS work the same as NVDA because they handle queued changes to the live region differently. JAWS queues all the changes and announces them all, which is why it says "long ramp" after you have moved to an empty space. By contrast, NVDA announces the most recent change and dumps all the previous ones. That is a desirable behaviour in your application, but it is not in some others. It would be nice if the author could control this behaviour, but it is not possible.
The ARIA 1.1, 1.2 and draft 1.3 specifications for live regions says "User agents or assistive technologies MAY choose to clear queued changes when an assertive change occurs. (e.g., changes in an assertive region may remove all currently queued changes)", so both JAWS and NVDA meet the specification in the case of an assertive region.
Curiously, the specification does not say what should happen to queued changes in polite regions, which is what you are using. Perhaps the specification authors thought it was obvious that the queued changes should all be announced since they are not time critical. If that is the case, NVDA's behaviour is incorrect. But we don't know because the specification doesn't say and it doesn't look like there are plans for it to do so.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 15 February 2023 03:00
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Hello,
It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want any menus open when you hit backslash.
It's an application specific command.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the
> web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use
> one or the other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application
> Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
>
> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>
> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to
> an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from
> its buffer? On our application site:
>
> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>
> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use
> your screen reader rather than web TTS.
>
> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>
> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>
>
>
> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>
> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how
> to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of
> Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Feb 15 2023 6:51AM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application ElementUsing Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →
That sounds like it will work, but the debounce period will introduce a delay between pressing a key and hearing the speech for all screen reader users. It's worth experimenting, but you may find that the delay annoys even more people.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: 15 February 2023 12:00
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
You should be able to fix the second problem by using a debounce function for writing messages to the live region.
While the user is pressing keys quickly and repeatedly, the debounce function will prevent any messages from being written to the live region until the user pauses longer between key presses. This won't alter how NVDA currently speaks the information while preventing the JAWS speech queue from loading up with old messages it has to process.
It is something I have used for character counters.
Thanks!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:13 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Now I understand and I can hear the difference between JAWS and NVDA. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make JAWS work the same as NVDA because they handle queued changes to the live region differently. JAWS queues all the changes and announces them all, which is why it says "long ramp" after you have moved to an empty space. By contrast, NVDA announces the most recent change and dumps all the previous ones. That is a desirable behaviour in your application, but it is not in some others. It would be nice if the author could control this behaviour, but it is not possible.
The ARIA 1.1, 1.2 and draft 1.3 specifications for live regions says "User agents or assistive technologies MAY choose to clear queued changes when an assertive change occurs. (e.g., changes in an assertive region may remove all currently queued changes)", so both JAWS and NVDA meet the specification in the case of an assertive region.
Curiously, the specification does not say what should happen to queued changes in polite regions, which is what you are using. Perhaps the specification authors thought it was obvious that the queued changes should all be announced since they are not time critical. If that is the case, NVDA's behaviour is incorrect. But we don't know because the specification doesn't say and it doesn't look like there are plans for it to do so.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: 15 February 2023 03:00
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
Hello,
It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want any menus open when you hit backslash.
It's an application specific command.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the
> web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use
> one or the other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application
> Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
>
> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>
> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to
> an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from
> its buffer? On our application site:
>
> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>
> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use
> your screen reader rather than web TTS.
>
> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>
> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>
>
>
> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>
> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how
> to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of
> Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Thu, Feb 16 2023 7:07PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | No next message
Yesterdayâs JAWS 2023 release included some changes to live region handling with ARIA Atomic. It would be interesting to know if this helps.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Feb 15, 2023, at 8:51 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> That sounds like it will work, but the debounce period will introduce a delay between pressing a key and hearing the speech for all screen reader users. It's worth experimenting, but you may find that the delay annoys even more people.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Sent: 15 February 2023 12:00
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> You should be able to fix the second problem by using a debounce function for writing messages to the live region.
>
> While the user is pressing keys quickly and repeatedly, the debounce function will prevent any messages from being written to the live region until the user pauses longer between key presses. This won't alter how NVDA currently speaks the information while preventing the JAWS speech queue from loading up with old messages it has to process.
>
> It is something I have used for character counters.
>
> Thanks!
> Tim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Steve Green
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:13 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Now I understand and I can hear the difference between JAWS and NVDA. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make JAWS work the same as NVDA because they handle queued changes to the live region differently. JAWS queues all the changes and announces them all, which is why it says "long ramp" after you have moved to an empty space. By contrast, NVDA announces the most recent change and dumps all the previous ones. That is a desirable behaviour in your application, but it is not in some others. It would be nice if the author could control this behaviour, but it is not possible.
>
> The ARIA 1.1, 1.2 and draft 1.3 specifications for live regions says "User agents or assistive technologies MAY choose to clear queued changes when an assertive change occurs. (e.g., changes in an assertive region may remove all currently queued changes)", so both JAWS and NVDA meet the specification in the case of an assertive region.
>
> Curiously, the specification does not say what should happen to queued changes in polite regions, which is what you are using. Perhaps the specification authors thought it was obvious that the queued changes should all be announced since they are not time critical. If that is the case, NVDA's behaviour is incorrect. But we don't know because the specification doesn't say and it doesn't look like there are plans for it to do so.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: 15 February 2023 03:00
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
>
> Hello,
> It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want any menus open when you hit backslash.
> It's an application specific command.
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
>> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the
>> web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use
>> one or the other - it's always both.
>>
>> NVDA works fine.
>>
>> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
>> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>>
>> Steve Green
>> Managing Director
>> Test Partners Ltd
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> Sent: 14 February 2023 23:40
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application
>> Element Using Aria Live Regions
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
>> developing a web application to work with Jaws.
>>
>> I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to
>> an application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from
>> its buffer? On our application site:
>>
>> https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ
>>
>> 1. Using Jaws, arrow down to âAudio Map Onâ and hit enter. This will
>> pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash ââ and it will use
>> your screen reader rather than web TTS.
>>
>> 2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
>> between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.
>>
>> 3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the âlong rampâ and quickly repeatedly
>> arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear âlong rampâ
>> still announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you
>> press the right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no
>> problem clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.
>>
>>
>>
>> Iâm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
>> issues with Jaws in a browser application?
>>
>> Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I donât know how
>> to resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of
>> Jaws. Iâm using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > >
> > > > > > >