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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2023 9:47AM
Subject: Full URLs in PDF documents
No previous message | Next message →

Hello everyone,

My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you might
have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link, such as
footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion was whether it
was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL like that as-is, or
whether there are any steps we should take in the formatting of the URL (ie
InDesign has an alt text option we could place descriptive text or
instructive text). The question was basically, was it too annoying or
cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?

My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full URL
as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could get context
why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or similar) and my
feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader users would probably
know how to skip to the next element on the page, if they found themselves
listening to "H T T P colon backslash backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we
wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.

I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's not how
the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to users who can
read some of the visible text themselves but also use a screen reader too
as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the screen reader
experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.

So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more
experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the little
particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!

*x*
*Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
Front-end Developer
ContextCreative.com <http://contextcreative.com/>;

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2023 10:13AM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | Next message →

Good question. I've wondered about the best way to manage these as well,
Christine.

In the case of footnotes and references, I currently retain the full URL
and generally don't add any extra coding.

In some cases, though - especially when a full URL appears in the main
body of a document - I have added alternative text to the link that
matches the page title of the actual page that is linked in the URL.
Whether or not that is useful depends on the intended audience and
context of the document where the URL appears. So I use my judgment by
examining the context on a case-by-case basis. I'm curious how others
manage this.

If I'm able to recommend edits to the actual text being tagged, then I
encourage content creators to precede such URLs by the actual page title
in the regular body text, rather than relying on alternative text. That
way the URL then appears after a colon or in parentheses following the
title of the page referred to, which makes the URL more readable and
understandable for everyone anyways.

For a URL that appears in a full citation like in an academic footnote
or bibliography, I don't add any extra tagging. In those cases, the
title is already included in the same location in plain text, so I
figure any extra info in tags is redundant.

Also, I would note that for any PDF that is intended to be printed, the
inclusion of full URLs can be very important, since a user may need to
manually type in the full URL from a printed page. So there are some
cases where I think the purpose of the document requires that you
absolutely should include a full URL, even if it is clunky and awkward
for everyone.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2023-02-27 11:47, Christine Hogenkamp wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you might
> have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link, such as
> footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion was whether it
> was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL like that as-is, or
> whether there are any steps we should take in the formatting of the URL (ie
> InDesign has an alt text option we could place descriptive text or
> instructive text). The question was basically, was it too annoying or
> cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?
>
> My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full URL
> as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could get context
> why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or similar) and my
> feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader users would probably
> know how to skip to the next element on the page, if they found themselves
> listening to "H T T P colon backslash backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we
> wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.
>
> I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's not how
> the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to users who can
> read some of the visible text themselves but also use a screen reader too
> as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the screen reader
> experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.
>
> So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more
> experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the little
> particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!
>
> *x*
> *Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
> Front-end Developer
> ContextCreative.com <http://contextcreative.com/>;
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2023 11:49AM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | Next message →

It is a good question. Some documents are meant to be printed, and in those
a full URL is needed. Even though I always advise to do descriptive text
over URLs, it isn't always possible. Now in the case of URLs, if you have
control over them, try to make them descriptive. at least then people who
can't see them can get an idea of what the linked page is about...Also I
avoid URL shorteners when I can, in 10 years many won't be around and they
are dead (there are ones that are more permanent, but really nothing is
permanent after 20 years or so).

I find the link issue is totally context dependent in documents, in my
experience try to go for the descriptive text. Also if there is any way to
change a sentence that has a URL in the middle of it, and moving it to the
end-that can work too. Just depends on how much you control.

Just my two cents!

Cheers

Lisa

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:48 PM Christine Hogenkamp <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you might
> have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link, such as
> footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion was whether it
> was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL like that as-is, or
> whether there are any steps we should take in the formatting of the URL (ie
> InDesign has an alt text option we could place descriptive text or
> instructive text). The question was basically, was it too annoying or
> cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?
>
> My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full URL
> as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could get context
> why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or similar) and my
> feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader users would probably
> know how to skip to the next element on the page, if they found themselves
> listening to "H T T P colon backslash backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we
> wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.
>
> I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's not how
> the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to users who can
> read some of the visible text themselves but also use a screen reader too
> as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the screen reader
> experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.
>
> So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more
> experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the little
> particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!
>
> *x*
> *Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
> Front-end Developer
> ContextCreative.com <http://contextcreative.com/>;
> > > > >

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2023 2:44PM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | Next message →

One point to consider is that pdf is a print format (Yes, I'm that old). If we hide the text of the URL then how does a print reader follow the link? I would suggest that it should be available in a footnote at the very least.
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Feb 28 2023 3:52AM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree. When I teach accessible/tagged PDFs, I have links in the body of the document/content have Alt Text so that the flow of reading/comprehension is not interrupted when using screen readers or TTS tools.

I approach citations differently. Footnotes and Endnotes are references and I don't use Alt Text for them. Their role in the document is to provide the reference sitsite/citation.

While we can skip over long web addresses using keyboard commands, it gets tricky if the long web address is in the paragraph instead of at the end. We're never quite sure if we've skipped some text while trying to skp the long web address. I also think that someone not using a screen reader would be able to hover the mouse over the link and see the Alt Text in the body of the text which would mean that they didn't have to search the long web address to see where it would take them. 😊

This is why we can't specify that "all links" are treated the same way in a document/content. We have to look at the role that link playes in the document. Is it part of the body text or a TOC or is it a reference?

As I think I've stated on this list before, adding Alt Text to links in a TOC breaks the TOC for those using screen readers unless we add the page number reference to the Alt Text. Thinking of a TOC that goes on for pages, this is just too much remediation needed in addition to creating an accessibility barrier.

Cheers, Karen


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 12:14 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Full URLs in PDF documents

Good question. I've wondered about the best way to manage these as well, Christine.

In the case of footnotes and references, I currently retain the full URL and generally don't add any extra coding.

In some cases, though - especially when a full URL appears in the main body of a document - I have added alternative text to the link that matches the page title of the actual page that is linked in the URL.
Whether or not that is useful depends on the intended audience and context of the document where the URL appears. So I use my judgment by examining the context on a case-by-case basis. I'm curious how others manage this.

If I'm able to recommend edits to the actual text being tagged, then I encourage content creators to precede such URLs by the actual page title in the regular body text, rather than relying on alternative text. That way the URL then appears after a colon or in parentheses following the title of the page referred to, which makes the URL more readable and understandable for everyone anyways.

For a URL that appears in a full citation like in an academic footnote or bibliography, I don't add any extra tagging. In those cases, the title is already included in the same location in plain text, so I figure any extra info in tags is redundant.

Also, I would note that for any PDF that is intended to be printed, the inclusion of full URLs can be very important, since a user may need to manually type in the full URL from a printed page. So there are some cases where I think the purpose of the document requires that you absolutely should include a full URL, even if it is clunky and awkward for everyone.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2023-02-27 11:47, Christine Hogenkamp wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you
> might have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link,
> such as footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion
> was whether it was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL
> like that as-is, or whether there are any steps we should take in the
> formatting of the URL (ie InDesign has an alt text option we could
> place descriptive text or instructive text). The question was
> basically, was it too annoying or cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?
>
> My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full
> URL as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could
> get context why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or
> similar) and my feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader
> users would probably know how to skip to the next element on the page,
> if they found themselves listening to "H T T P colon backslash
> backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.
>
> I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's
> not how the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to
> users who can read some of the visible text themselves but also use a
> screen reader too as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the
> screen reader experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.
>
> So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more
> experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the
> little particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!
>
> *x*
> *Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
> Front-end Developer
> ContextCreative.com
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fconte
> xtcreative.com%2F&data%7C01%7C%7C08758304624a47053fed08db18e5fbdb%7
> C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131148285320193%7CUnkno
> wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
> CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SJtDxYMusH3uqBCAZ2H8mkTT76KIbA8EAv
> sbOmPruRU%3D&reserved=0>
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.w
> ebaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7C%7C08758304624a47053fed08db18e5fbdb%7C84df
> 9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131148285320193%7CUnknown%7C
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> YLATwE40%3D&reserved=0 List archives at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim
> .org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&data%7C01%7C%7C08758304624a47053fed08d
> b18e5fbdb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131148285320
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> 3n1NwFsFIgftFhciZhP%2BhE%3D&reserved=0
>

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Feb 28 2023 4:05AM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | Next message →

This is why I started, years ago, to provide the long web addresses in footnotes or Endnotes so that I optimized the accessibility of the content.

While reading the main body text, Alt Text or contextual links are used, but I also add Footnotes or Endnotes with the long web addresses in case someone wants or needs to print the document and needs to know the web address in a discussion or some other scenario.

Not all documents are suited to this solution. For those that are, it is a good solution and only takes a few seconds to implement while writing the document.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of L Snider
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 1:49 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Full URLs in PDF documents

It is a good question. Some documents are meant to be printed, and in those a full URL is needed. Even though I always advise to do descriptive text over URLs, it isn't always possible. Now in the case of URLs, if you have control over them, try to make them descriptive. at least then people who can't see them can get an idea of what the linked page is about...Also I avoid URL shorteners when I can, in 10 years many won't be around and they are dead (there are ones that are more permanent, but really nothing is permanent after 20 years or so).

I find the link issue is totally context dependent in documents, in my experience try to go for the descriptive text. Also if there is any way to change a sentence that has a URL in the middle of it, and moving it to the end-that can work too. Just depends on how much you control.

Just my two cents!

Cheers

Lisa

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 12:48 PM Christine Hogenkamp < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you
> might have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link,
> such as footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion
> was whether it was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL
> like that as-is, or whether there are any steps we should take in the
> formatting of the URL (ie InDesign has an alt text option we could
> place descriptive text or instructive text). The question was
> basically, was it too annoying or cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?
>
> My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full
> URL as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could
> get context why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or
> similar) and my feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader
> users would probably know how to skip to the next element on the page,
> if they found themselves listening to "H T T P colon backslash
> backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.
>
> I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's
> not how the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to
> users who can read some of the visible text themselves but also use a
> screen reader too as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the
> screen reader experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.
>
> So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more
> experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the
> little particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!
>
> *x*
> *Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
> Front-end Developer
> ContextCreative.com
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fconte
> xtcreative.com%2F&data%7C01%7C%7C5e54db5c143b4662d38f08db18f36137%7
> C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131205816048129%7CUnkno
> wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL
> CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Gwh27qN3kUwnThFkKiEbi9%2F%2FRLsGjI
> Y3OeM0JtQP4sk%3D&reserved=0>
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.w
> ebaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7C%7C5e54db5c143b4662d38f08db18f36137%7C84df
> 9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131205816048129%7CUnknown%7C
> TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
> I6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pAvEE%2BYghPpszGeASGdAPHq7rlIlEkUoXyvNT
> TB%2BNCE%3D&reserved=0 List archives at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim
> .org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&data%7C01%7C%7C5e54db5c143b4662d38f08d
> b18f36137%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638131205816048
> 129%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi
> I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0%2BZIPqfx67zC199bVQaZd
> doGhRVWxbPLg2u1JtgyKrs%3D&reserved=0
> >

From: Schroeder, Karole
Date: Tue, Feb 28 2023 1:11PM
Subject: Re: Full URLs in PDF documents
← Previous message | No next message

A couple questions come to mind, and I single no one out because this is happening everywhere:

First, why are we using PDF documents on online platforms? What good reason is there for the PDF document versus a web page? Consider that PDF documents are typically intended for print and print media already has several limitations for people with a variety of disabilities. If the information can be converted into a webpage without losing meaning (putting the aesthetic look and feel of print media aside), then it should be in webpage form: instructions, forms, and promotions.

Second, why are we spelling out URLs on web pages or documents on online platforms? For those of us with poor memory, long URLs are hard to remember. If I'm not already struggling to type a URL out, I am forgetting the order of the characters in the URL and having to go back and forth between the document and the web address bar of a browser. And like QR codes seen on webpages, if you are already on a computer with internet access, simply selecting the link should be enough to get you to the listed website. Less concern about remembering or typing.

Karole Schroeder, CPACC (she/her/hers)
Electronic and Information Resources Accessibility Coordinator (EIRAC)
Office of Information Security | Division of Information Technology
Phone: 361.825.3154


6300 Ocean Dr.
Corpus Christi, TX 78412
361.825.5700 | tamucc.edu



-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Hogenkamp < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2023 10:48 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Full URLs in PDF documents

Hello everyone,

My team and I were discussing URLs in PDFs and instances where you might have the full URL instead of a descriptive text for the link, such as footnotes or references section in a report. The discussion was whether it was OK to have an occasional instance of a full URL like that as-is, or whether there are any steps we should take in the formatting of the URL (ie InDesign has an alt text option we could place descriptive text or instructive text). The question was basically, was it too annoying or cumbersome for the reader to have to listen to the whole URL?

My opinion in the matter was that I thought it was OK to have a full URL as-is, as long as the URL was in a place where the reader could get context why the URL was there (ie under a header "References" or similar) and my feeling about full URLs is that most screen reader users would probably know how to skip to the next element on the page, if they found themselves listening to "H T T P colon backslash backslash W W W ..." etc. so that we wouldn't be trapping them in having to listen to the whole URL.

I also thought it might not be ideal to use alt text because that's not how the text presents visually, so that might be confusing to users who can read some of the visible text themselves but also use a screen reader too as additional help. Usually our goal is to have the screen reader experience match the visual experience, as much as reasonably possible.

So I welcome any thoughts on this, since so many of you are more experienced in accessible PDFs than I am and have dealt with all the little particular elements and how they should be formatted. Thanks in advance!

*x*
*Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
Front-end Developer
ContextCreative.com <http://contextcreative.com/>;